Hi Guys and Gals,
I need your help. I'm 50+ and have been a model railroader for most of those years. I am currently building a new layout after a ten year hiatus. Because of a divorce I have lost most of my old stuff. I have cars, track and a few DC locos. I don't have a power pack. So it is obvious that I should move straight into DCC. I have wired the new layout for DCC, several isolated electrical sections, main busses (14 guage), all rail has feeders, etc.
I've read all the comparisons in the mags, the manufacturers websites and reviews but sometimes the info seems conflicting. I can solder and drop recievers in my older Athearn and Atlas locos. But what is a good starter controller.
My wants are simple: Inexpensive, program on the main, expandable.
What are you using and would you start with that brand again if you were starting from zero today?
With the depth and breadth of this audience I'm sure you can help me. You've been there, right?
Yeah, I know there is no one answer to this.
Help.
Thanks in advance. Paul in Honolulu
My choice was the MRC Prodigy Advance 2. It is a full featured DCC system that is more user friendly and more reasonably priced than most other systems. It also easily upgrades to wireless. Plus the wireless cab does everything the wired cabs do including programming, and, you dont have to plug the cab in to switch which loco your controlling. This system is definatly worth a look. I even bought a Prodigy Express system for my work bench.
For decoders themselves MRC decoders are okay but my personal preference are Digitrax decoders. They just seemed a little more refined than the MRC (if that makes any sense). Thanks to the NMRA standards most of the manufacturers equipment are all compatible.
In the end though it comes down to personal preferences. All systems nowadays, MRC, Digitrax, NCE etc. are solid and reliable. I have even heard good things about the Bachman Dynamis system, but their decoders are very limited. Go down to your local hobby shop and talk to folks there, both staff and customers. They will be a wealth of knowledge, and a some may even allow you to try out their systems on their home or club layouts.
Thanks JD. MRC is high on my list. Can you program on the main?
No hobby shops out here anymore. thats why I need the forums help.
Paul
I also have MRC Prodigy Advance. I have added an extra throttle so both grandsons can run trains and plan to add the wireless also. The system is one of the best IMHO. HOWEVER, you will get the same opinions for Digitrax, NCE, and others
With your age and experience, I don't get the 'expendable' part for buying a DCC system. I was about your age when I bought my DCC system. (I am now 65 and a model RR'er for most of those years as well.) I bought an NCE Power Pro and have not regretted it in any way shape or form. I bought that one because it would grow with me and any railroads that I built. I am now working on my second RR using the same system.
EDIT: Remember, you get what you pay for both in function and quality.
2nd EDIT: Well, I guess I blew the expendable part. Next time I will look closer to the word that was "expandable".
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I am a very satisfied NCE user. But, I believe there are two very important considerations for each of us to consider.
I chose NCE after giving those considerations some thought. It has worked very well for me. The entry level PowerCab system is moderately priced and expandable. And it supports programming on the main.
Good luck!
You want it to be expandable, but in what way? What expansions do you think you might want?
Things that you might consider expansions are:
Adding additional throttles, if so how many?
Wireless?
PC interface for decoder programming and PC control of the layout?
Additional boosters?
Signalling?
Some systems are not nearly as expandable as others. Some systems are very costly to add basic expansions. It would be a good idea for you to think about what you might want to do as this alone might eliminate a particular brand from consideration.
Myself, I am a Digitrax user. Starting with a basic Zephyr system I have expanded with additional throttles, a booster, PC interface and Decoder Pro software running on an old PC and I soon plan to add radio to the system. I also plan to add integrated signalling during 2009 using the Digitrax signalling system. I find the system very easy to use and would not change it for any other brand. Oh, it programs on the main. I have just spent an enjoyable hour playing around with speed curve matching of a trio of locos using POM from the Decoder Pro application.
Bottom line is that all of the systems are good in their own way. You just need to find the one that meets your needs today and your anticipated needs in the future.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Are your hands used to fine work and still supple after all these years? They're not tired mitts with fingers that don't quite straighten any longer? Finding and pushing smallish buttons or lots of them won't be a chore for you?
How're the eyes? Will you have to hold the throttle a few inches away so that you can actually see the display clearly? How big should the symbols and numbers on the display be?
If you were to find photos of each of the throttles available, you might be able to judge how easily you will find enjoyment and train control with them.
Just a thought...if you can't actually find some locally to try for 10 minutes.
-Crandell
I've got a Lenz System 100. I like the big buttons, as Crandall suggested. The Lenz hand-held throttle unit just felt right to me. That, and the 5-amp capacity of the system.
Some of this depends on the size of your layout, and the number of engines you'll be running. For the average room-sized layout with 3 or 4 engines running together, you only need something like 2.5 amps, which I believe translates nicely to a Digitrax Zephyr. If you're planning an empire, though, with a dozen engines and hundreds of feet of track, then you might want to look at larger systems.
There are still a few non-expandable units on the market, and these should be avoided. Other than that, most system are very good. The NMRA standards guarantee that you can run any DCC locomotive from any DCC system. Digitrax, Lenz, MRC and NCE all make good systems, and if I've left anyone out, it's my fault, not theirs.
Aloha, and welcome back.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
GD19, the word was 'expandable'. Had to go back and read my own submission to make sure I didn't misspell.
To everyone who posted so far, thanks.
No major clubs out here. No decent hobby shop for trains. So I'm ordering online and teaching my non model railroader buddies about the hobby. (Most of them seem pretty interested in learning to 'operate' after I've explained the basic concept to them.)
My layout is 25' long around two walls, so only 3 or 4 locos tops - NOW. I do want to use this DCC equipment for quite some time. So expandability is important. The MRC units look to fit the bill at this time. But do they program on the track or do I need a dedicated, isolated siding? And yeah, I'd like to go wireless with throttles 2 and 3. And yes, I'll hook it up to the computer.
Thanks again all.
I am a satisfied Digitrax user for ten years. There are a lot of good DCC systems on the market, however a PC interface is a must. With a computer interface you can use JMRI Decoder Pro software to program your decoders. Decoder pro is free and always improving. You can also use your computer with Decoder Pro as an extra throttle.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
jpwhawaiiThe MRC units look to fit the bill at this time. But do they program on the track or do I need a dedicated, isolated siding? And yeah, I'd like to go wireless with throttles 2 and 3. And yes, I'll hook it up to the computer.
One very good reason to give some serious thought as to the suitability of the MRC offering. PC interface has only just been announced. It is an expensive option ($200 odd I read somewhere) and is advertised as using its own proprietary software. It is not at all clear if it can use the free and excellent Decoder Pro application. For me this would be a deal breaker and a good reason to look at one of the other manufacturers,
Hi Paul;
Find out what the local club(s) use - a go with that. This provides you with a big support base for the many issues that crop up.
http://www.geocities.com/oahutrain/index.html
http://www.hawaiianrailway.com/
I ended up with Digitrax because the club in OKC had that, now the local club in San Jose has NCE, and I am not sure if I will switch or suffer.
MRC will program on the main - no need for extra track, but that's not always a problem
I chose NCE over the Digitrax, looked at both and found the NCE more used friendly from a programing stand point and the buttons seemed more robust.
I do like the plug in feature that the MRC upper end unit has, however I still favor the NCE.
As to decoders, I prefer Digitrax (their hard wire decoders have wire that is more flexible than the others on the market) as I model in N-scale and room is almost non existent in those small locos that are only DCC friendly and non friendly (older ones)
I think that any one of the above units are a good choice for the money and all have very good tech service should one have a problem or need help.
There have been several comments here that the MRC computer interface requires their proprietary software and is not compatible with Decoder Pro.
If you think radio throttles and a computer interface might be nice to have, then look at the North Coast Engineering PowerPro Radio system, which has a computer serial port built in.
You can download the manuals for all of the various systems from each manufacturer's web site and see pictures of what you get, including the different throttles that are available. That would probably be the best way to decide which you think would fit your hand better and be the easiest to use.
http://www.cvpusa.com
http://www.digitrax.com
http://www.ncedcc.com
http://www.lenz.com
http://www.modelrec.com
and there are some others with which I have no experience.
You did not mention whether you were interested in running DCC sound equipped engines. If you are then you might take into consideration how many functions the DCC system can control. Some of the new sound equipped engines have as many or more than 28 functions. I have the a Digitrax Zypher system I and was well pleased with it, but I don't think that Digitrax is planning on expanding their system to handle more functions. Although most of the new functions out now are not something I would use all the time maybe in the future this might change. I'm thinking about upgrading to the Lentz system which has been upgraded to more functions. It just seems some systems are limited and some are more upgrade friendly for future expansion.
These are just my thoughts as their are many people on this forum that are far more informed than I will ever be. Hope this helps!
Jim
chessiecat but I don't think that Digitrax is planning on expanding their system to handle more functions.
Jim, the new DT throttle that is coming out with the 2 way radio has F28 support. You will be able to use it with the Zephyr to get the 28 functions if that is something you want. According to David Bedard this is coming to market in April. It has been in the works for some time and was supposed to be released in 2008.
Personally, I would not be concerned about the number of functions beyond the first 8 or so. Sure, some decoders may have more than 28 sound effects available, but how many of them would you really use. The NCE PowerPro supports 28 functions, but I hardly ever use anything beyond the first 9 -- and not all sound decoders even use that many yet. From what I have read, all of those extra sounds are things I would never use even if I could control them. Chickens? Cows? Horses? A blacksmith shop? I don't run my train through the middle of a farm.
Chuck, I think you're fibbing. I have it on good authority that you enjoy F24, the one of the plugged biffy in the dining car flushing, overflowing, and splashing on the deck. I agree, it is realistic sounding, though. Especially the woman's voice that goes, "Eeewwww!"
F25 is the porter knocking on the door and asking if everything is alright in there.
You can do 28 functions TODAY on a Digitrax system - the throttle in the JMRI software supports functions up to F28. The comamnd station in Digitrax has little to do with this - also why you can plug a DT400 12 function throttle into a Zephyr and use all 12, while the Zephyr console itself only does 8.
Otherwise I'm with Dave on this, who NEEDS 28? Ho wmany sounds does a loco make anyway? Since they have the most extra goodies, I'll use a modern diesel as an example. Obviously there's the horn and bell. 2 functions. lights, ditch lights, and maybe a warning beacon. 3 more. What else is under engineer control? The motor - so 2 more, for up and down. Dynamic brake, 1 more. That's 8 so far in case you weren't keeping score. What else do you need? Assume DCC uncoupling is perfected and cheap. Maybe 2 more so you can operate either couple independently although this could be tied to the direction and use just 1 button. So now we have 10. All the extra ones in MRC and MTH decoders are for silly things like canned radio chatter, conductor calls, in the case of MTH a TRAIN WRECK, and in MRC some of the extra are canned horn sequences in case you're too lazy to blow the horn yourself for a grade crossing. In other words - stuff that might be of interest to those with toy trains but seldom if ever any needed by the more serious modeler.
Not that there is anything wrong with playing with toy trains. But there are two different markets, albeit with some crossover.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Good Morning all,
Well, I knew this was the place to go. 20 posts in less than 24 hours, on the weekend to boot. Thanks. You have helped to answer some of my most important questions. I love MR but with advertisers, everyone is 'good to great'. 28 functions is getting toward Lionelville. Man, but wouldn't it be cool to uncouple with a button! Woof.
I was the GM at the Hawaiian Railway in '93 - '94 so I am familiar with the operation out there. Haven't been to the model club in awhile though. I'll go check it out.
Time to hunt the net for some sales.
Thanks, thanks, thanks,
simon1966...It is not at all clear if it can use the free and excellent Decoder Pro application...
Paul,
Here's what you need to do: Take 2 small pieces of paper, write NCE on one and Digitrax on the other, fold them up, put them in hat, pick one out, and go with that system!
But all kidding aside, it seems from all you have described that one of these two might be the best fit for you. They are the two most popular systems in the U.S. and both are excellent.
From what you've said, you should probably rule out the following:
MRC: No computer interface yet, and when available (MRC has said maybe mid-year 2009), it apparently won't run the very popular, free JMRI. MRC wireless is excellent but they don't have less expensive engineer's cabs for your extra radio throttles. If you don't buy right away, and like this system, you may want to wait until their interface is available to see if it will do want you want.
Lenz: A fine system but no radio throttles. Their cordless phone option is economical but does't work nearly as well as other manufacturer's engineer's radio cabs.
Easy DCC: Apparently a very good system with very good radio throttles. I guess I shouldn't suggest ruling this one out except some say it's a bit pricey with sales only thru the mfg., and not nearly as many users as NCE and D. You may want to take a closer look at this one though.
It's really tough to choose between NCE and Digitrax. They are both terrific systems with lots of users and good support. I rate them equal, even when considering radio since Digitrax is so close to coming out with their duplex radio. From your layout description, you definitely need tethered walk-around or wireless capablity. NCE and D both have less expensive engineer's cabs so whether plug-in or radio they can take care of you. If you go with a Digitrax Zephyr it's a fixed location cab so you definitely will need at least one extra cab to start with.
Digitrax is always upgradeable so you could upgrade your tethered cabs to duplex radio when available. If you to with NCE radio be sure you buy a set that has been upgraded to their 1.5 version as it is really excellent. If you can afford it go with either NCE Power Pro radio or Digitrax Super Chief. These are both 5 amp systems (which you may or may not need) as they have all the bells and whistles (features). But you could start with NCE Power Cab + their Smart Booster (3 amps) or the Zephyr (2.5 amp) and then upgrade to radio. Someone else will have to explain how to upgrade the Power Cab to radio. If you want to run more than 2 cabs, or one cab and a computer interface, you will need the Smart Booster add-on.
Sorry to be so long winded but I hope this will be of some help. There are lots of other things to consider so maybe as you get closer to a decision we can offer some additional suggestions.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Well, I did figure out you were after expandable instead of expendable.
With an NCE Power Pro system, basic at first, you can add radio later by up-grading. You can send in your throttles and have them up-graded for radio.
Multiple throttles can be used with it without mods. I don't know how many right off hand, but more than 10.
The Throttle that comes with the system is called a Hammer Head type. The buttons are good size and so is the display with two lines of information.
Programming is easy to do using the throttle itself, so you don't need the computer and JMRI Decoder Pro right away. A programming track is recommended, and needed if you want to read back CV's from your decoders. The command station can be modified so that you can read back CV's from sound decoders that other systems require a Power Pax booster to do. You can program on the main with it if desired.
A serial port is built in for computer interface and by using a serial to USB adapter it will connect to computers that have USB ports only.
If you want to add detection and signaling to your layout, you can either use what is available from NCE, or you can also use the new Digitrax BDL-168 detection and SE8C signal boards. It is a little extra work to do this, but it can be done as I am doing it with my NCE system.
Do not confuse the Power Pro system with the Power Cab starter system. Some folks are now using the Power Cab system for programming only, at the workbench instead of on their layouts. And the Hammer Head throttle on the Power Cab CAN be used as a second throttle on the Power Pro system.
As mentioned I too use an MRC Prodigy Advanced but one thing not mentioned that I like for us 50+ crowd is that it had the largest , easiest to read screen and thats what sold me . Let's face it the eyesight isn't improving with age!
jwils1MRC: No computer interface yet, and when available (MRC has said maybe mid-year 2009), it apparently won't run the very popular, free JMRI. MRC wireless is excellent but they don't have less expensive engineer's cabs for your extra radio throttles. If you don't buy right away, and like this system, you may want to wait until their interface is available to see if it will do want you want.
I did a little checking and the lack of an engineer's cab by MRC is not really a problem because their add-on wireless cabs are very economical. So, for your extra cabs you would be getting full-featured cabs for all operators.
A couple of other points regarding MRC.
1. Their throttle buttons are nicely arranged and very easy to use. Better arrangement and easier to use than NCE's dogbone in my opinion. Not that NCE's is that bad but MRC is better.
2. If you want to throw turnouts from your DCC throttle MRC will handle this just fine, except it takes more button pushing and you can't control loco speed or direction while in turnout throwing mode. Digitrax and NCE don't have these limitations.
So, I guess the big bugaboo with MRC is mainly their computer interface situation.
jwils1Easy DCC: Apparently a very good system with very good radio throttles. I guess I shouldn't suggest ruling this one out except some say it's a bit pricey with sales only thru the mfg., and not nearly as many users as NCE and D. You may want to take a closer look at this one though.
One additional point about Easy DCC is that, just like NCE's PowerPro, they include a built-in computer interface.
Thanks all,
I ordered an MRC Avance2 from Standard Hobby, $220 for a $380 list. Now I'm checking the mail for the next 3 days... Christmas in February.
I couldn't have done it without you.
jpwhawaii Thanks all, I ordered an MRC Avance2 from Standard Hobby, $220 for a $380 list. Now I'm checking the mail for the next 3 days... Christmas in February. I couldn't have done it without you. Paul
Congratulations on your entry into DCC. The PA2 should serve you well.
If you're not already familiar with it, you should read MRC's "Tips and Tricks". This has a lot of helpful info for all MRC users. Here is the link:
http://www.modelrectifier.com/resources/trainsound/PRODIGY%20ADVANCE%20%20TIPS%20AND%20TRICKS%20REVISED%2005-03-07.pdf
Also, should you ever add the Wireless conversion, be sure to buy Version 2 as it is the latest version and provides the best performance. Some vendors may still have the old version in stock so make sure they have Ver. 2 so you won't have to send your unit to MRC for upgrade. Version 2 can be identified by a Ver. 2 sticker inside the battery compartment.
If you are not already a member, you may want to join the MRC Yahoo Group. Other members can help with any questions you might have and you can keep up with any new developments at MRC.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRC-DCC/