"Computerizing" NCE Power Cab and decoder programming

[ds137]

Okay experts, the NCE web page looks like trash now, so getting to the info I want has my Head spinning.  Maybe you guys can get me turned in the right direction.  Here's what I already have:

NCE Power cab,  SB3, CAB05e, all wireing and hardware and power supplies connected and working nicely, thank you.  I have several engines that I want to install MRC sound only decoders in engines that have already have had decoders (TCS) installed in them and are working just fine.  I want to be able to program the sound decoders to match the engines, and also speed match my engines so that I can eventually consist equipment etc...

My question is, what type of interface device should I get to program the decoders and connect the system to my laptop?  Should I buy a stand alone programmer like the Sprog II or will the NCE USB or do I need both or some other brand.  My first attempt at decoder installation was in a BLI SD40 that had an on board sound decoder, so I fought the fight and ended up getting the movement decoder and the sound decoder playing nice together and everyone was happy.  I just think there is an easier way to do this and with many more such adventures on the horizon,  what way should I go next?

Earl 

[ds137]

Thanks David-

the  

[ds137]

dual decoders was purely a fiscal decision.  If I had the $$ I would look at the Loksound but when this maddness started (DCC) for me I had 5 engines to put decoders in and now thru the magic of electronics and a truely Generous wife, The DCC system and a BLI engine brought sound into my life! Now I am spoiled and want sound in everything, (so does she!) so that explains the Sounders (got a good deal I think - 4 for $85) so I guess the right next choice would be the NCE USB interface so be able to use JMRI to speed match, etc.  No need to get a stand alone decoder programmer?

[jalajoie]

Exactly what do you have, is it a Power Cab or a PH Pro ?

If it is a PH Pro the USB interface will not program decoders and there is already a built in computer interface with the unit.

If it is a Power Cab, the NCE USB interface is what you need to connect with a computer.

 

[CSX Robert]

ds137

...NCE Power pro,  SB3, CAB05e...

I suspect you mean Power Cab, since the SB3 is designed to work with the PowerCab and not the Power Pro. I would suggest that you get the NCE USB interface.

[cacole]

 The NCE PowerPro has a serial port on it.  But you need a computer with a serial port, which your laptop probably does not have.  I have a PowerPro at home and we use PowerPro at the club.  I have connected both to desktop PCs with serial cables to use Decoder Pro.

Without a computer serial port, you cannot use the serial bus that is on the PowerPro.  The USB plug on the NCE device will not allow you to use DecoderPro.  NCE even tells you this on their web site in the description of their USB interface.

[tstage]

Just a small correction.  Earl may indeed have a Pro Cab throttle instead of a Power Cab.  You can use either with a Smart Booster (SB3) because the SB3 overrides the OS of the Power Cab and technically turns it into a Pro Cab.

You can use any "non-radio" NCE throttle to start, stop, change directions, and operate CVs.  However, the Power Cab will still be required to perform any address or CV programming to your locomotives.

So, a CAB-04, CAB-05, or Pro Cab throttle will work with an SB3 - even without hooking a Power Cab to it.

Tom

[4merroad4man]

cacole

 The NCE PowerPro has a serial port on it.  But you need a computer with a serial port, which your laptop probably does not have.  I have a PowerPro at home and we use PowerPro at the club.  I have connected both to desktop PCs with serial cables to use Decoder Pro.

 

Can you use a serial to USB adapter for the PC end of the cable?

[rrinker]

 Generally, yes, because it's a standard serial port and doesn't do anything wierd or flakey.

                                   --Randy

[ds137]

Sorry for the confusion, I have the Power Cab.

[ds137]

I was hopeing to use Decoder Pro.  NCE's web site is such a mess right now that I missed that part about not being able to use Decoder pro with the USB device.  I didn't read thoroughly thru the PDF file of the user's guide for the USB DEVICE, if it cannot be used with Decoder Pro, does it have software with it to make it useable in a similar, user freindly manner?  I thought I had seen that NCE's USB device was supported on the JMRI website, but I can't remember exactly.  I'm at work now and that and most any other websites are system access denied.  I'm suprised that I can get on this one really, but I am not going to bring it to anyone's attention :-)

 

[ds137]

Yes, I have heard and read nothing good about the MRC movement decoders, but I have not heard and any bad things about the Sounders, so I am hoping for the best..... I will post and let everyone know how well they work out.

[Stevert]

ds137

NCE Power cab,  SB3, CAB05e,

Earl 

 

Earl, 

  Keep in mind that since the SB3 does not have programming track outputs, you will be limited to programming on the main, with or without the USB interface.  That's fine for speed matching, but maybe not so fine for other programming needs.

  On the other hand, if you set up your "original" Power Cab on a stand-alone programming track, you can use that for your "other programming needs" and still do your speed matching on the layout.  You'd just have to move your cab, your locos, and your USB interface back and forth.

  Not the ideal solution in my opinion, but about the best you can do given the limitations of the equipment you're working with.

HTH,
Steve

[Stevert]

ds137

I was hopeing to use Decoder Pro.  NCE's web site is such a mess right now that I missed that part about not being able to use Decoder pro with the USB device.  I didn't read thoroughly thru the PDF file of the user's guide for the USB DEVICE, if it cannot be used with Decoder Pro, does it have software with it to make it useable in a similar, user freindly manner?  I thought I had seen that NCE's USB device was supported on the JMRI website, but I can't remember exactly.  I'm at work now and that and most any other websites are system access denied.  I'm suprised that I can get on this one really, but I am not going to bring it to anyone's attention :-)

 

 

JMRI supports the NCE USB interface, within the limitations of that device.  See:

http://jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/nce/NCE.shtml#powercab

Steve

[CSX Robert]

ds137

I was hopeing to use Decoder Pro.  NCE's web site is such a mess right now that I missed that part about not being able to use Decoder pro with the USB device.  I didn't read thoroughly thru the PDF file of the user's guide for the USB DEVICE, if it cannot be used with Decoder Pro, does it have software with it to make it useable in a similar, user freindly manner?  I thought I had seen that NCE's USB device was supported on the JMRI website, but I can't remember exactly.  I'm at work now and that and most any other websites are system access denied.  I'm suprised that I can get on this one really, but I am not going to bring it to anyone's attention :-)

 You can use Decoder Pro with the USB interface.  When used with the Power Pro, you can not do any programming.  Whe used with the SB3, you can only program in Ops mode because the SB3 does not have a program track output.  When used with the Power Cab as the command station(you'll have to have the PCP panel hooked up seperate from the SB3 and move the PowerCab and USB interface from the SB3 to the PCP), you can use all of the programming modes.

 Here are the USB interface limitations as listed on the JMRI site:

All systems:
    No AIU support, No Turnout MONITORING, No Clock functions.
Power Cab and SB3:
    Can only access accessory addresses between 1 and 250.
SB3:
    No programming track support, operation mode only.
Power Pro:
    No loco programming

[mikebo]

 I have used an NCE Powercab with the USB interface to program locos with JMRI Decoder Pro. JMRI has instructions on their web site for configuring it. Setting up the USB port on your PC to recognize the USB interface can be problematic, You need to download the driver and the link is not very well documented.

 I also have setup dual decoder installations with MRC sounders and TCS and NCE decoders. They can be made to work but are truly a pain in the butt to program because of CV overlap between the decoders. Also the sounders have an undocumented CV 49 which will silence the decoder if it set to 0 or an even number.

[ds137]

Yikes!  thanks for that heads up.... I would drive myself nuts trying to figure the silence CV..what about the CV overlap? How do you handle that?  I would guess to disable the overlapping CV's on the TCS decoder and lock the settings, then program the Sounder and let handle the overlapped functions?

Earl 

 

[mikebo]

 The only way I found to deal with the dual decoders is to use the same long address and different short addresses. MRC sounder decoders don't lock ( and don't read back on a programming track) and you can't lock the decoders if you need to make any changes such as consisting. I run my locos on our club's (FCSME) modular layout and don't have a permanent consist number, so I may have to change theconsists.

 What I do is to assign is assign the two decoders different short addresses, this can be done before installation or by locking the non MRC decoder then assigning the address to the MRC decoder. Assign both decoders the same long address and use the long address for all operation.

To program your loco, put it on you program track and read CV 29, you will get the value for the non-MRC decoder. Remember the value, now subtract 32 from that value ( changes the active address to the short address). Now program your loco at both short addresses. After you have finished your programming read CV 29 on the non MRC decoder. Add 32 to it and change CV 29 to that value on both decoders.

Like I said a pain.

[ds137]

thanks for the tips Mike,  That is exactly why I wanted to know about the USB interface- I think it will make decoder programming a lot easier.  I wasn't aware tht the MRC decoder could not be locked.  That's a pain.  Any problem with consisting? Have you any complaints about the sounder?

Earl

[mikebo]

I have MRC 1662 and 1666 decoders, they function OK and are very loud. They have a few idiosyncrasies ( CV overlap and function overlap) but are a cheap way to add sound to a loco. The dual decoder programming hassle is the major disadvantage.They also don't have a stay alive capacitor so they are very sensitive to breaks in continuity.

I probably won't do any more dual decoder locos but will probably use another sounder in a dummy.

[ds137]

So, rather than having dual decoders, you would overcome the overlap problem by consisting the two units together to get the sound to sync with the movement and using the lighting functions of the Sounder to control lights on the dummy?  Did you have to install power pickups on the dummy, or did you piggyback off the powerd unit..... maybe that's the answer, program the MCR with a bogus address (not afilliated with the long address of the powered unit and tell the system it's a consist linked to the powered unit....hmmmmm

 

[mikebo]

 In my case, the dummy will have it's own power pickups, it's an F7B, so it won't have any lights. My dummy has a different number so the sounder will carry the loco number. I will then consist as if both locos are powered. You could give both locos the same number and simply remove one when you want to program.

[railandsail]

I'm totally new to this DCC world, but I've been following it for some time. I became convinced that NCE was the system for me. I recently acquired a Wireless Power Pro 5-amp system and began to experiment with it a little.

I had read an article in Model RailRoad News about Decoder Pro and noted this quote; Well folks I found a new tool for managing the decoders in our locomotives. Instead of slaving over a hot throttle with a tiny screen, punching little bitty buttons, you suddenly have all the real estate of your big computer screen, big keyboards, and your mouse to work out managing the decoders, keeping track of your roster and all the changes you've made to the default setting, and you can use it to write the changes through the command station.

This sounded like a great tool to me as well. Plus I've seen a friend who uses this Decoder Pro system with his layout. He has Digitrax DCC.

So I immediately sought to hook up my NCE Power Pro system to an older Dell laptop of mine and install JMRI on that computer. I've hit some roadblocks I did not anticipate. I need HELP

When I look on JMRI website and the NCE section I find 3 manners to wire the NCE to the computer.
1) via a serial cable
This looks to be the best solution, but my laptop does not have a 9 pin serial port. It does have USB ports, and a card slot for a wireless internet card.

2) via Network 
This might be viable but I'm not a computer wiz, so I don't know how this might be accomplished

3) via USB
Physically this sounds very easy, but there are a number of limitations associated with it.

Today I looked at a NCE USB-Adapter. I have 3 problems with this connection method. 1) It appears as though some of these are faulty??, 2) They list some system limitations with this method of connection that it sounds like would be handy to have, 3) I would assume I run a RJ12 cable from the command station to this USB-Adaptor. But then how do I manage to plug in my wireless station?

Isn't there some sort of connector/adaptor for the laptop that would allow a serial to serial connection?

 How is that the NCE Powercab system be more adaptable to utilizing the JMRI DecoderPro program that the Procab or Wireless Procab? I'm disappointed that this was going to be so much more compatible

[CSX Robert]

railandsail

Today I looked at a NCE USB-Adapter.

I think you have figured this out already, but you do not want the NCE USB interface to use with the Power Pro.

railandsail

Isn't there some sort of connector/adaptor for the laptop that would allow a serial to serial connection?

Yes, a USB-to-serial adapter. Here is more information on using one with JMRI:JMRI Hardware Guide: Using a USB to Serial adapter

railandsail

How is that the NCE Powercab system be more adaptable to utilizing the JMRI DecoderPro program that the Procab or Wireless Procab?

It's not, anything you can do with the PowerCab and a PC you can do with the Power Pro and a PC, more even, but not with the NCE USB interface because it was really designed specifically for the PowerCab.

[railandsail]

Thank you for that reply CSX. I believe one thing I did is confuse the naming of the NCE gear. I confused Power Cab with Power Pro and vice versa.

So now I see I need that USB to Serial connector cable, but not that one by NCE (a little confusing on their part?). When I did a little more research on this cable situation I discovered another potential problem. Here is what I asked NCE but have not heard an answer yet:
"Now I have a new question. I want to utilize JMRI Decoder-Pro program with the NCE wireless unit. My laptop that I wish to have the JMRI program on has NO serial port. So I need a USB to Serial port converter cable.

As I research this a bit it appears as though there is quite a variety of these cables, some of which do not offer full functionality. This might be a problem if the wrong cable is used.?

http://www.usconverters.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=195

 

Do you have a recommended list of Serial Port conversion cables to link with your NCE product?? "
__________________________________________

 

 

I have one more question to add. What might be wrong with getting the wireless feature working??

I've hooked everything up correctly, and I can get the cab working fine by directly plugging it in. However with brand new batteries installed I still get no functionality from the same hand held cab in the wireless mode??

Should I do something special? Do I need a manual specific to the wireless unit??
Regards, Brian

 

[rrinker]

 I assume you have the radio base unit plugged in to your cab bus? You can get all the manuals on the NCE web site, so if you got your system without one, you cna read it or download it from there.

                                 --Randy

 

[railandsail]

 I took this info from the JMRI website. Now two questions;

1) On this forum it has been indicated that this NCE USB adapter was NOT appropriate for use with the PowerPro system. True or not?

2) Is it telling me I'm unable to program locos thru the JMRI program because I have a USB form of connection (USB to Serial cable)to my NCE command station rather than a pure Serial port connection?
 
 

NCE USB Adapter
 
The NCE USB Adapter can be connected to three NCE systems, Power Cab, SB3 (SmartBooster) or Power Pro. You must select the correct system from the preference menu for reliable operation.
 
NCE USB Adapter Limitations
The NCE USB Adapter doesn't support all of the current JMRI features and functions. Some of the restrictions are based on the type of system the USB Adapter is connected to. The USB can't get information from AIUs, so they can't be used to get feedback from the layout. The turnout feedback mode MONITORING isn't available when using a USB, and the Clock functions found in tools are also not available. The USB when connected to a Power Pro system doesn't support any type of loco programming, and when connected to a SB3 only operation mode (no program track) is available for loco programming. Most functions and features that are not supported by the NCE USB are disabled or grayed out in the JMRI program.
 
USB Adapter Limitation Summary

All systems:
No AIU support, No Turnout MONITORING, No Clock functions.
Power Cab and SB3:
Can only access accessory addresses between 1 and 250.
SB3:
No programming track support, operation mode only.
Power Pro:
No loco programming

[CSX Robert]

You are looking at two completely different options - the NCE USB Interface and a USB-to-serial adapter.

The NCE USB interface is a USB-to-NCE cab bus interface. It was designed for the PowerCab. It can be used with the Power Pro system, but is very limited when used that way.

A USB-to-serial adapter can only be used with a Power Pro system because the PowerCab and the SmartBooster do not have serial ports. If you use a USB-to-serial adapter with the Power Pro you get the full functionality of JMRI just like you would with a straight serial connection(JMRI won't even know that it is a USB interface, because it will appear as a serial port to it). The "USB Adpater Limitations" applies only to the NCE USB adapter, not a USB-to-serial adapter.

[Stevert]

railandsail

 I took this info from the JMRI website. Now two questions;

1) On this forum it has been indicated that this NCE USB adapter was NOT appropriate for use with the PowerPro system. True or not?

2) Is it telling me I'm unable to program locos thru the JMRI program because I have a USB form of connection (USB to Serial cable)to my NCE command station rather than a pure Serial port connection?
 
 

NCE USB Adapter
 
The NCE USB Adapter can be connected to three NCE systems, Power Cab, SB3 (SmartBooster) or Power Pro. You must select the correct system from the preference menu for reliable operation.
 
NCE USB Adapter Limitations
The NCE USB Adapter doesn't support all of the current JMRI features and functions. Some of the restrictions are based on the type of system the USB Adapter is connected to. The USB can't get information from AIUs, so they can't be used to get feedback from the layout. The turnout feedback mode MONITORING isn't available when using a USB, and the Clock functions found in tools are also not available. The USB when connected to a Power Pro system doesn't support any type of loco programming, and when connected to a SB3 only operation mode (no program track) is available for loco programming. Most functions and features that are not supported by the NCE USB are disabled or grayed out in the JMRI program.
 
USB Adapter Limitation Summary

All systems:
No AIU support, No Turnout MONITORING, No Clock functions.
Power Cab and SB3:
Can only access accessory addresses between 1 and 250.
SB3:
No programming track support, operation mode only.
Power Pro:
No loco programming

This is one of the problems I have with the way the NCE systems are designed.

  The serial port connection on the Power Pro is only an interface into the Command Staion and DOES NOT echo the throttle buss traffic.  On the other hand, the NCE USB adaptor gives you a limited window into the throttle bus, but it does NOT let you access all the Power Pro command station features. In other words, neither option is a complete solution.

  Anyway, since you already have the Power Pro, my suggestion is to get a proper USB to Serial adapter such as the Keyspan USA19 series. 

  Also, keep in mind that the NCE USB interface and a USB to Serial adapter are NOT the same thing.  Based on your posts I get the impression that you may be confusing the two.  But they are distinctly different devices with very different purposes and abilities.

HTH,
Steve