Good Morning and a Very Happy New Year to you all!
As I am converting to DCC in a few months - along with rebuilding my layout - I figured its time I started asking your preference on decoder brands. While I have 5 BLI Paragon locos with decoders, none of the Stewart, P2K, Atlas, Kato, or Spectrum locos are so equipped - so I better start shopping.
Before I actually ask the question, let me say that I know my way around a soldering iron and wiring (not electronics), and the new DCC system will be Digitrax Super Chief w/4 districts.
Sooo, my question is, what brand of non-sound decoders do you prefer? I am more concerned about quality and availability and support - with price being somewhat secondary.
Thank you all in advance!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Digitrax for me...
It depends on what you are looking for in a decoder. You can buy basic 'fleet' decoders with 2 light function outputs and basic motor control in the $15 range. If you are looking for 4-6 light function outputs and 'BEMF' motor control, you can spend up to $25 for a decoder. NCE, TCS, and Digitrax all have decoders in both price ranges.
The other part of the equation is 'form factor':
Check out www.tonystrains.com or www.litchfieldstation.com and compare featues/prices to get a 'feel' for this. There are a lot of dealers with very good decoder prices if you buy 'in bulk'(4-10 decoders).
Older Steward F unit engines have no socket - I just hard wire them Most P2K engines from about the mid 90's have a 8 pin socket, as do newer Kato/Atlas engines. The above 2 web sites and the manufacturers web sites have a lot of model specific decoder install info - Look for it and read up.
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I agree with all of the above.
I just picked up a 4 pack of the NCE D13SR decoders and these are an excellent low cost fleet decoder. I used all 4 for hard wire applications in an eclectic mixture of locomotives. In one of the applications (A 4 car Eurostar trains set) the 4 functions were very useful for adding control to interior lights in the passenger cars.
My absolute favorite non-sound decoders are from TCS. The MC2 range in particular is a real favorite. It is really small, which makes it great for tight spaces. The TCS back EMF is superb and provides amazing low speed control. Plus the goof proof warranty is hard to beat. I also like the fact that TCS offers a range of harness models to compliment the decoders which can be helpful in particular applications.
I also run Digitrax decoders and have no complaints about them.
All 3 are good manufacturers.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Digitrax & NCE decoders.
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
mobilman44 Good Morning and a Very Happy New Year to you all! As I am converting to DCC in a few months - along with rebuilding my layout - I figured its time I started asking your preference on decoder brands. While I have 5 BLI Paragon locos with decoders, none of the Stewart, P2K, Atlas, Kato, or Spectrum locos are so equipped - so I better start shopping. Before I actually ask the question, let me say that I know my way around a soldering iron and wiring (not electronics), and the new DCC system will be Digitrax Super Chief w/4 districts. Sooo, my question is, what brand of non-sound decoders do you prefer? I am more concerned about quality and availability and support - with price being somewhat secondary. Thank you all in advance! Mobilman44
I use Digitrax decoders in all of mine. If you use the DH165 series decoders you can always add sound later. Many of the 165s have built-in current limiting for the lights so no bulb changes to worry about. Most of mine have been drop in or plug in conversions that go very quickly.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I have used Digitrax and TCS decoders for my older engines where all that was needed was the basics. Personally I like the way that the TCS decoders work much better than the Digitrax. Some of my Athearn blue box engines had a low speed growl with the Digitrax. When I switched to TCS the growl went away and the engine had a lot better low speed performance.
"Hope this helps,
Joe
NCE D13SRJ, 4 function for most applications as stated before. Use a PNP harness if the loco calls for it or hard wire it in. I have installed about 30 of them and have not had a failure yet.
Another source of decoders and great information about what decoder to use in locomotives is from Tim Smith at Empire Northern Models. Tim's store is only a few blocks from NCE.
Great prices and especially if you need a number of decoders.
TCS all the way for me - have over 50 of them in use. Great running characteristics, very quiet, best price for all you get including the Goof Proof warantee .... I fried two of them (my own error) and they were replaced no questions asked !!!
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
TCS,NCE or Lenz. TCS is the way to go for performance and great lighting features. There rule 17 dimm when stopped and F4 is great. When used with LEDs the dimming is adjustable. NCE for the excelent ditch lights they have.
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
While I use Digitrax as the control system, I much prefer NCE's decoders, for the simple reason that I prefer the way that NCE decoders support LEDs for lighting effects.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I have decoders from Digitrax, TCS, Bachmann (I think they are made by Lens), and Tsunami. I have been happy with them all. Once installed and operating properly, I have never had a decoder fail.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
fmilhaupt While I use Digitrax as the control system, I much prefer NCE's decoders, for the simple reason that I prefer the way that NCE decoders support LEDs for lighting effects.
I am curious by your statement. I've always used Digitrax decoders and have never had the reason to look at NCE and others. What specifically do you like about the NCE decoders that I may be missing out on or is it how they've implemented the lighting effect feature ? I do agree that the FX3 functions that DIgitrax implements in the 163/165 series can be a little complex to program in the CVs but I've not found myself wanting for something else yet.
The main thing is that a 4 function, silent running decoder with full lighting effects and explicit support for using LEDs for those effects is only $12 in quantity. Individual MSRP comparing like to like, the DH163P is $12 more than the D13SRJ, with 2 more functions, or the DH123P is $3 more for 2 LESS functions. Based on on the running characteristics of a P2K Geep with a DH163L0 vs one with a D13SRJ - the Digitrax decoder isn't worth $12 more.
Go figure, I used more NCE and TCS decoders than Digitrax ones on my Digitax system.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker The main thing is that a 4 function, silent running decoder with full lighting effects and explicit support for using LEDs for those effects is only $12 in quantity. Individual MSRP comparing like to like, the DH163P is $12 more than the D13SRJ, with 2 more functions, or the DH123P is $3 more for 2 LESS functions. Based on on the running characteristics of a P2K Geep with a DH163L0 vs one with a D13SRJ - the Digitrax decoder isn't worth $12 more. Go figure, I used more NCE and TCS decoders than Digitrax ones on my Digitax system. --Randy
Ok, I can see that. With the 165s and the Soundbugs I can justify the cost differential. I was more concerned about other functionality missing in the 163/165 series that I might want to use later. I am not hearing that is the issue. It sounds like comparing the 123 series with the D13SRJ is where all of the functionality differences come into play, correct ? Couple that with the D13SRJs are cheaper than the 123s and more functional, they make more sense. I think that's what you're saying. The D13SRJs then might make more sense for me in GP60s, GP38-2s etc.. where sound is not likely an option I prefer to explore.
About the only feature in the 163 not in the D13 is BEMF. And I never could 100% tune out the 'jump' in a DH163L0 (since the processor/code is the same in all DH163 series, the fact that this was the P2K board repalcement type shouldn't matter). With a lesser quality drive it might make a difference but I had no issues with ultra slow speed switching using the NCE decoder without BEMF.
The DH123 series don't have BEMF, so the price is really the selling factor here.
BTW I plan to get a Super Chief set but NOT a PS515 - the NCE 15V 5 amp power supply is usually $20 less and it's the same thing! Go figure..
Wow, thank you for your input - it is valued and appreciated.
I listed out my locos that I will convert (25 - stewart F & Ft & VO1000 locos, 13 - P2K GP7/9 & PA & E & S1, 3 Spectrum steamers, 2 H16-44, 3 Atlas RS 1 & 4/5) - about 46 in all. From your postings, I gathered that NCE, Digitrax, and TCS were the most popular decoder brands. So I went to their websites and got the decoder numbers for each of my locos, and then went to a few dealers (Tonys & TTH, etc) and priced them out. As I would like to have most/all of my decoders from one manufacturer, I did some comparisons, and it appears ( I certainly could be all wet about this) that:
- NCE seems to be the most readily available and least expensive and offers a lot of "4 packs".
- Digitrax seems to be the most expensive, and not as available as NCE.
- TCS is less expensive than Digitrax, but more than NCE; and availability seems to be limited.
Of course the kicker in my "analysis" is that I can't evaluate the quality of each - so while on the surface NCE seems to be the best buy for my situation, perhaps I would be happier with another brand.
Again, your comments would be appreciated!
Another really good dealer to check out is www.litchfieldstation.com I have had nothing but excellent service from Bruce.
If you are serious about getting all 40 odd locos decoders in one go, I would be very tempted to contact some of these vendors by e-mail and present the list of what you want and get a bulk quote. My guess is that you might be able to better than the on-line pricing in that situation. If I were in your shoes I would not stick to one manufacturer. Perhaps try a couple from some different sources and see what you think and like. For example I have the TCS MC2 in my Stewart VO1000's and love the slow speed response with the BEMF that they have. I use the NCE decoders with 4 light function outputs for applications where that is more important to me. Your DCC control system will not care that the decoders come from different vendors. It is your choice of course, but I actually get some enjoyment out of having different decoders with different features.
simon1966 Another really good dealer to check out is www.litchfieldstation.com I have had nothing but excellent service from Bruce. If you are serious about getting all 40 odd locos decoders in one go, I would be very tempted to contact some of these vendors by e-mail and present the list of what you want and get a bulk quote. My guess is that you might be able to better than the on-line pricing in that situation. If I were in your shoes I would not stick to one manufacturer. Perhaps try a couple from some different sources and see what you think and like. For example I have the TCS MC2 in my Stewart VO1000's and love the slow speed response with the BEMF that they have. I use the NCE decoders with 4 light function outputs for applications where that is more important to me. Your DCC control system will not care that the decoders come from different vendors. It is your choice of course, but I actually get some enjoyment out of having different decoders with different features.
100% concur with Bruce and Litchfield station. I ordered 5 Digitrax Soundbug decoders from him last Friday (day after Christmas) and they showed up on Monday with no shipping fees. He often has Digitrax stuff in stock that everyone else is out of. I was able to get DS64s from him when everyone else was out. Excellent service and speed.
mobilman44 Wow, thank you for your input - it is valued and appreciated. I listed out my locos that I will convert (25 - stewart F & Ft & VO1000 locos, 13 - P2K GP7/9 & PA & E & S1, 3 Spectrum steamers, 2 H16-44, 3 Atlas RS 1 & 4/5) - about 46 in all. From your postings, I gathered that NCE, Digitrax, and TCS were the most popular decoder brands. So I went to their websites and got the decoder numbers for each of my locos, and then went to a few dealers (Tonys & TTH, etc) and priced them out. As I would like to have most/all of my decoders from one manufacturer, I did some comparisons, and it appears ( I certainly could be all wet about this) that: - NCE seems to be the most readily available and least expensive and offers a lot of "4 packs". - Digitrax seems to be the most expensive, and not as available as NCE. - TCS is less expensive than Digitrax, but more than NCE; and availability seems to be limited. Of course the kicker in my "analysis" is that I can't evaluate the quality of each - so while on the surface NCE seems to be the best buy for my situation, perhaps I would be happier with another brand. Again, your comments would be appreciated! Mobilman44
Digitrax recently moved their offices from Georgia to Florida and that seems to have caused some temporary back-ordering but if you shop around you can find them. You might want to try a decoder from each manufacturer and then decide when one you like best. If you do think you might add sound later, do think about your upgrade options. You can always get stand-alone sound decoders but there may be issues with space or you may find yourself pulling a motor only controller and replacing it with a motor and sound unit. Something to keep in mind and don't under estimate is the issue with bulbs/LED lighting. If the decoder doesn't have current limiting you can find yourself blowing lamps and LEDs if you aren't very careful.
rrinker About the only feature in the 163 not in the D13 is BEMF. And I never could 100% tune out the 'jump' in a DH163L0 (since the processor/code is the same in all DH163 series, the fact that this was the P2K board repalcement type shouldn't matter). With a lesser quality drive it might make a difference but I had no issues with ultra slow speed switching using the NCE decoder without BEMF. The DH123 series don't have BEMF, so the price is really the selling factor here. BTW I plan to get a Super Chief set but NOT a PS515 - the NCE 15V 5 amp power supply is usually $20 less and it's the same thing! Go figure.. --Randy
I am a bit surprised on your choice but you've often mentioned the investment protection you see with Digitrax, so I can see your choice. Are you planning to wait on the 2-way radios that hopefully will be coming out in the next few months ? When you buy the Super Chief set, consider the 8A version for only a few bucks more. The cost differential is small enough to warrant it (IMHO). When I bought my third booster I went with the 8A unit.
I don't go in for extra lighting functions beyond the front and rear lights so the Digitrax DZ125 serves me well. It's tiny size enables it to be placed almost anywhere and it can handle most HO equipment. I've found they work in blue box Athearn's very well.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jeffrey-wimberly I don't go in for extra lighting functions beyond the front and rear lights so the Digitrax DZ125 serves me well. It's tiny size enables it to be placed almost anywhere and it can handle most HO equipment. I've found they work in blue box Athearn's very well.
Agreed. I use the newer DZ125PS decoders for (previously used the DZ143PS) BLI Blueline locomotive motor controllers for the same reason, smaller size. Even though the decoders are smaller than their HO counterparts, they have enough current handling to support HO locomotives.
jbinkley60 I am a bit surprised on your choice but you've often mentioned the investment protection you see with Digitrax, so I can see your choice. Are you planning to wait on the 2-way radios that hopefully will be coming out in the next few months ? When you buy the Super Chief set, consider the 8A version for only a few bucks more. The cost differential is small enough to warrant it (IMHO). When I bought my third booster I went with the 8A unit.
The decoder choice, or the power supply? I'm not planning on getting any radio, the small space I have for a layout now is reachable entirely with a single throttle plugged in somewhere near the middle. On the old 8x12 I had 3 UP5;s, one on the outside front, one on the inside front, and oen on the inside rear, which allowed me to be near the train no matter what.
If I hadn;t lost my stuff I wouldn;t be buying anything, I'd still have my Zephyr, the UP5's, and my DT400. I really don;t NEED a Super Chief for this small layout, a Zephyr would be PLENTY, but I figure I will have it for the future. Downside of the 8 amp version is finding a power supply for it. Regardless of what Tony and Don Fiehmann claim, the MagnaForce 615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply, their own test shows quite a bit of voltage drop not to mention it shutting down when faced with a continuous 8 amp load. And running in a situation where the power supply voltage can sag before the booster/command station reaches capacity is just asking for odd behavior. I'll stick with 5 amp systems and just add more boosters when I get a big layout.
What it boils down to for me is that when using LEDs for lighting, NCE's decoders' support of effects such as Rule 17 dimming and Gyralights is far superior to that provided by Digitrax's decoders. NCE decoders use a different technique to ramp up and down the apparent brightness of an LED as opposed to an incandescent bulb.
I've never found Digitrax's Gyralight and Rule 17 effects to be very good when using LEDs. When using Digitrax decoders with incandescent lamps, I've had no problems, but when using LEDs, the results are just not as visually pleasing as NCE's. Digitrax simply reduces the voltage, while NCE does something different (perhaps adjusts the on/off cycle) to achieve a nicer-looking effect for dimming.
Pesonally, I don't find programming effects to be particularly difficult on either Digitrax or NCE decoders.
rrinker jbinkley60 I am a bit surprised on your choice but you've often mentioned the investment protection you see with Digitrax, so I can see your choice. Are you planning to wait on the 2-way radios that hopefully will be coming out in the next few months ? When you buy the Super Chief set, consider the 8A version for only a few bucks more. The cost differential is small enough to warrant it (IMHO). When I bought my third booster I went with the 8A unit. The decoder choice, or the power supply? I'm not planning on getting any radio, the small space I have for a layout now is reachable entirely with a single throttle plugged in somewhere near the middle. On the old 8x12 I had 3 UP5;s, one on the outside front, one on the inside front, and oen on the inside rear, which allowed me to be near the train no matter what.
I was referring to your system/command station choice but given your prior investment, it makes sense.
rrinker If I hadn;t lost my stuff I wouldn;t be buying anything, I'd still have my Zephyr, the UP5's, and my DT400. I really don;t NEED a Super Chief for this small layout, a Zephyr would be PLENTY, but I figure I will have it for the future. Downside of the 8 amp version is finding a power supply for it. Regardless of what Tony and Don Fiehmann claim, the MagnaForce 615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply, their own test shows quite a bit of voltage drop not to mention it shutting down when faced with a continuous 8 amp load. And running in a situation where the power supply voltage can sag before the booster/command station reaches capacity is just asking for odd behavior. I'll stick with 5 amp systems and just add more boosters when I get a big layout. --Randy
Yes, the MF615 won't go all the way to 8A. Somewhere in the 6-7A range is starts to current limit (over extended periods of time the heat can cause a shutdown) but it will burst to 8A for short period of time with no problems. I have some spare 300-400W transformer cores lying around and some 12-14ga magnet wire. I may wind myself a transformer with multiple outputs each capable of supporting at least 8A outputs. It's been a few years since I wound a core.
My first two boosters were 5A and I just decided when buying the third to go with 8A for the investment protection and the small cost difference ($8 at Tony's), even if I am using MF615s for now. I did forget about the size of your current layout and adding boosters will work very well. That's the approach I went with, to expand by adding boosters. This is another area where DCC is an improvement over DC. You can add more cabs with DC but slaving them to a common throttle is a bit more challenging.
You mean why a Super Chief and not a lesser system? Well, after I got the DT400 to use with my Zephyr,m I pretty much ONLY used the DT400 - so if I got a Zephyr again I'd also buy a DT400 and a UP5 or two - now I'm getting to the same cost. A Super Empire Builder is compeltely out as the ONLY system to have - I'd buy one if I needed an extra booster and throttle, but never as a standalone system. No CV readback, no dedicated program track - no sale.
Or if you mean why not something else because I seem to liek everyone else's decoders better - no one has yet trumped Loconet in its versatility and availablity of third party add-ons. It does more and makes things impler because there's only one 'control bus' to run around the layout. There are tons of DIY projects (which is why I already build a new Locobuffer and Loco-IO) as well. Being able to combine the throttles, detection, and signaling all into one cable is a huge advantage and it's the whole Loconet design in general which sold me on Digitrax back in the beginning. With the NMRA standards allowing me to use whichever decoders I like best regardless of the controlling system, it's a win-win.
rrinker You mean why a Super Chief and not a lesser system? Well, after I got the DT400 to use with my Zephyr,m I pretty much ONLY used the DT400 - so if I got a Zephyr again I'd also buy a DT400 and a UP5 or two - now I'm getting to the same cost. A Super Empire Builder is compeltely out as the ONLY system to have - I'd buy one if I needed an extra booster and throttle, but never as a standalone system. No CV readback, no dedicated program track - no sale.
I meant your choice of Digitrax over another brand, like NCE. But given your prior investment in Digitrax the Super Chief system makes sense and provides good investment protection. I thought you were somewhat partial to NCE's systems and would go that route but I wasn't aware of your prior investment, hence my little bit of surprise.
rrinker Or if you mean why not something else because I seem to liek everyone else's decoders better - no one has yet trumped Loconet in its versatility and availablity of third party add-ons. It does more and makes things impler because there's only one 'control bus' to run around the layout. There are tons of DIY projects (which is why I already build a new Locobuffer and Loco-IO) as well. Being able to combine the throttles, detection, and signaling all into one cable is a huge advantage and it's the whole Loconet design in general which sold me on Digitrax back in the beginning. With the NMRA standards allowing me to use whichever decoders I like best regardless of the controlling system, it's a win-win. --Randy
Loconet was one of the main reasons I chose to go the route I did, for many of the same virtues you are explaining. I fully concur with the advantages of the Loconet bus and what Digitrax has been able to get it to do. They were thinking ahead when they designed it. I use it to spread my boosters out over the layout and keep the bus runs very short. My longest bus is about 10-12 feet. Having the bus and unexpensive periperials allows things like going to a 2 way radio nothing more than swapping out a UP91 panel and a minor throttle upgrade, instead of upgrading command stations and such.
Nope, I'm a solid Digitrax guy. I like the NCE decoders because no one else makes a good decoder for $12, and at $12 it's affordable to convert every loco - considering I really try not to pay more than $40 for a loco, putting a $30 decoder in seems a little extreme. The $40 loco figure may not be duplicable now, that was a few years ago, with careful and constant watching of eBay. That was for P2k and Stewart locos, too. The only one I paid more than $40 for was the PCM T-1 with sound.
rrinker Nope, I'm a solid Digitrax guy. I like the NCE decoders because no one else makes a good decoder for $12, and at $12 it's affordable to convert every loco - considering I really try not to pay more than $40 for a loco, putting a $30 decoder in seems a little extreme. The $40 loco figure may not be duplicable now, that was a few years ago, with careful and constant watching of eBay. That was for P2k and Stewart locos, too. The only one I paid more than $40 for was the PCM T-1 with sound. --Randy
I don't have too many locmotives that I need to add decoders to, around 25 or so. Fortunately I made the switch to DCC before I had too many locomotives. Almost everything I buy nowadays I buy with a decoder and sound from the manufacturer (Kato being the big exception). Digitrax did lower the list price on the 165 serides decoders from the 163 series by $3 to $26.99. I've generally be able to get them around $22 or so at shows.