Thanks for posting this
I bought a BLI SW7 in C&O when they first came out and it had the same problem
i set it aside and continued working on the layout
Now i'll dig it out and know what to look for
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
I just remembered that I bought a cheap BLI F7 set from ebay to expiriment with.
Turns out the reason it was cheap was extemely poor pickup. It would run about 6 inches and "reboot". A cursory inspection revealed nothing, but when I checked to see if the truck sideframes were interchangeable with Genesis (as the shell is), I noticed that the wire coming from one of the metalplates that hold the axles was hanging by the insulation, and there was one strand making intermittant contact. It looked fine, even fairly close up, and it was enough contact to test good for continuity, but as soon as it started rolling.....no pickup from that rail on that truck.
I stripped and resoldered and now it runs fine. 45 minutes work and a magnifying glass saved me over $100.
Might be worth a look.
Still haven't found atlas part number for wheelset, sorry.
PRR1948 and Railandsail,
Thanks, I am going to study my ATLAS S-1 and S-2 to see if anything begins to look similar. It is very disappointing that Walther's does not support these little switchers with wheel sets. They should have come in the box. Walther's does a otherwise very good job but I am not happy with the lack of replacements. The large fuel tank, a first for any EMD early switcher model is also out of stock but comes with the undec kit and some painted units.
The P2K S-1 and S-2 wheel set gear is different, but if the axle shaft is the same diameter than maybe I can twist the correct ones on and off. This may have promise? I will let you guy's know....
I bought the Atlas wheelset on ebay. The seller listed only one part number, and I even though Atlas carries at least one other part number, I couldn't descern any differences from researching the Atals site,so I just closed my eyes and ordered a couple. Other than having a slightly longer axle length,and a slightly different shine, it is a perfect fit, gear wise.
I think there are two fairly common geared axle types on recent diesels: the kind that have axle shafts that extend through a plate on each side, and the kind that have a square bearing trapped between the wheel and the gear, which in turn gets trapped by a bottom cover plate.
I believe the P2K SW9/1200 has the former, axle through side plate design.
I bought this on a lark, because they were being sold for less than $100 brand new.
This was during the time period where Walthers was in the process of acquiring Life Like, and interestingly, the box has no mention of either company, just Proto 2000!!
After I got rid of the traction tire, the drivetrain runs so good, I have now shoehorned it into a Kato (gasp) NW-2 early shell, to cure my thirst for that model with DCC/sound. (the SW9 was too new for me anyway- post 1948)
As for the specific part number, I don't think I have any records but I will look when I get a chance.
RDG1519That is correct, the sound equipped version SW 8/900 is one with a traction tire. The traction tire version can only pull well when negotiating a piece of straight track. It is useless on a switching layout.
That's interesting. That the main reason for having one of these switchers...switching operation.So if the SW8 is out, that leaves the SW7 by BLI that has its problems as well ...if you want sound that is.
Question still remains, can an ATLAS wheel set be used as Walthers and NWSL are out of stock on these wheelsets without traction tires. The units do not run well over Walthers code 83 turnouts.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
That is correct, the sound equipped version SW 8/900 is one with a traction tire. Question still remains, can an ATLAS wheel set be used as Walthers and NWSL are out of stock on these wheelsets without traction tires. The units do not run well over Walthers code 83 turnouts.
The traction tire version can only pull well when negotiating a piece of straight track. It is useless on a switching layout.
1948PRR....Interestingly My P2K SW9 did have a traction tire, did stall on switches,and was suffering from poor pickup. I replaced the traction tire axle with an Atlas part that didn't have one, and it's now light years better than the NW2, which doesn't have the traction tire...
I'm a little confused here. I have two Proto SW9, and neither of them have traction tires. i thought these models had enought weight not to require traction tires??
Wasn't it the Proto SW8 model that had a lot of weight removed to make room for sound and dcc. and thus required tracrion tires?
Did Proto do an SW7? That was BLI wasn't it?
The upgrade QSI chip will give you better running, especially at slow speed - provided there is good contact between clean trakc and clean wheels, since it adds the BEMF features originally missing from the decoder. It also adds the ability to upgrade the sounds using their programmer. But it makes no change in how the loco will respond to dirty wheels ro track, or any other interruption of power flow.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
PRR1948,
It is interesting you mention replacing the P2K SW9 traction tire axle set with an ATLAS part. Walthers is out of stock on all P2K metal wheelsets for these as well the NWSL axle sets are also out of stock.
Can you let us know which atlas part works on this P2K. I have a number of these P2K units I want to upgrade and eliminate the traction tire. I can add weight but the turnout issue is a problem.
I suspect the upgrade from QSI is much improved given the time that has gone by. I think I bought my NW2 BLI in 2005? I will try this upgrade as my first chip upgrade but I have a few projects in front of it, in particular the P2K traction tire pickup problem.
Thanks! Chris
I'm not exceptionally happy with my BLI NW2. All of their other products that I own are fine.
Interestingly My P2K SW9 did have a traction tire, did stall on switches,and was suffering from poor pickup. I replaced the traction tire axle with an Atlas part that didn't have one, and it's now light years better than the NW2, which doesn't have the traction tire.
I wonder if the upgrade chip would resolve anything?
This problem with the blackening is not just BLI. I had an Athearn genesis do the same exact thing. It was on an SD60 and it would only pick up on one truck. I scraped off the coating and never had another problem with it, at least not that problem. That is for a different thread.
I also have a BLI SW7 and have never had any problems with it.
Joe
delray1967 Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll have to check out the momentum CV, currently I don't have any momentum programmed (there's a button on the NCE cab just for that). I have had the shell apart and all the wires were intact. I did some work on it just now and think I have solved the problem! I took the front truck apart (just unclipped the gear box cover to clean out all the excess oil (there was WAY too much!). While apart, I used a motor tool and a small abrasive drum to remove the blackening from the metal contact where it touches the wheel face to expose bare metal. I also used a small wire wheel to clean the wheel face (close to the axle end) so there was better metal-to-metal contact. When reinstalling the contact plate (which slips over the stub ends to determine wheelbase and make contact with the wheel face), I installed one small (00-80?) washer on each stub before I put the contact plate over the stubs. My thinking here is the sideframes will put pressure on the contact plate, then the washers, then to the wheel faces (I think when I first took it apart months ago, the washers were on the outside of the contact plate). I put the loco on the track, and it made a complete loop on my 4x8 at speed step 10 (which is about 6 scale miles per hour, according to the verbal speed readout, F10). I turned the loco around and it made another loop without stopping. It looks like the blackening on the contact plate isn't conductive, so removing it worked. I only did this to the front truck, but I came up here to report my findings. No more head scratching! (hopefully,lol) I am going to do this to the rear truck after I have lunch today. I kinda figured it was a power pickup problem, but I didn't think BLI would coat the contact plate with a nonconductive coating! I guess just because they build the thing, they don't know how it's supposed to work! lol My RSD-15 runs great so I figure this might be limited to my production run of the SW-7. I remember months ago, I did clean paint (or blackening) from the wheel face and the holes in the contact plate figuring it was getting most of its contact from the axle stubs, not the wheel face. I guess (well, aparently) it's not heavy enough to make reliable contact with just the axle ends. Thanks for all your suggestions and help! It got me thinking about it and motivated me to investigate it further. Hopefully I'll get an airbrush for christmas so I can weather it. When I weather the RSD-15, I'm going to check everything, even though it runs fine. Thanks again for all the head scratching! Hopefully this thread will help some others' who have similar problems! Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll have to check out the momentum CV, currently I don't have any momentum programmed (there's a button on the NCE cab just for that). I have had the shell apart and all the wires were intact. I did some work on it just now and think I have solved the problem! I took the front truck apart (just unclipped the gear box cover to clean out all the excess oil (there was WAY too much!). While apart, I used a motor tool and a small abrasive drum to remove the blackening from the metal contact where it touches the wheel face to expose bare metal. I also used a small wire wheel to clean the wheel face (close to the axle end) so there was better metal-to-metal contact. When reinstalling the contact plate (which slips over the stub ends to determine wheelbase and make contact with the wheel face), I installed one small (00-80?) washer on each stub before I put the contact plate over the stubs. My thinking here is the sideframes will put pressure on the contact plate, then the washers, then to the wheel faces (I think when I first took it apart months ago, the washers were on the outside of the contact plate). I put the loco on the track, and it made a complete loop on my 4x8 at speed step 10 (which is about 6 scale miles per hour, according to the verbal speed readout, F10). I turned the loco around and it made another loop without stopping. It looks like the blackening on the contact plate isn't conductive, so removing it worked. I only did this to the front truck, but I came up here to report my findings. No more head scratching! (hopefully,lol) I am going to do this to the rear truck after I have lunch today. I kinda figured it was a power pickup problem, but I didn't think BLI would coat the contact plate with a nonconductive coating! I guess just because they build the thing, they don't know how it's supposed to work! lol My RSD-15 runs great so I figure this might be limited to my production run of the SW-7. I remember months ago, I did clean paint (or blackening) from the wheel face and the holes in the contact plate figuring it was getting most of its contact from the axle stubs, not the wheel face. I guess (well, aparently) it's not heavy enough to make reliable contact with just the axle ends.
Thanks for all your suggestions and help! It got me thinking about it and motivated me to investigate it further. Hopefully I'll get an airbrush for christmas so I can weather it. When I weather the RSD-15, I'm going to check everything, even though it runs fine. Thanks again for all the head scratching! Hopefully this thread will help some others' who have similar problems! Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
I'm interested in this subject matter on two levels. First I have my eye on a slightly used C&O SW7 loco with sound. I would hate to end up with these same problems you've experienced. Second I would ask about this 'wheel blackening', or plating, or whatever that appears on some BLI loco wheels. I have brought this subject up on the BLI factory forum with photos of some wheel problems I've had. I can't believe I am the only person to experience this wheel corrrosion problem along with its electrical contact problems?? Are their wheels just blackened brass, or nickle plated, or what??
http://www.broadway-limited2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1452&sid=8099de4afa54b94f0cc4436a535bf039...here if you don't care to enter that forumhttp://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=133533#post133533
My BLI switchers, along with a couple BLI E-8s right out of the box, did the same thing. I programmed out all acceleration and momentum, setting the CVs to 0. That allows a quicker recovery, and the flywheels to keep the loco moving. Then I put them on the layout, with no cars, and cranked the throttle wide open and just let them run for a couple hours wide open. That pretty much cleared up the problem. They stalled a couple times, early on, but began to run smoother. I was amazed at the difference breaking in an engine can make. I had always assumed a new engine right out of the box should perform perfectly, but they don't.
I have two BLI SW7s and had this problem with both. I found a solution either in the Yahoo BLI Group or on the BLI Forum - can't find it now but here are the details:
Set CV 33 and CV 34 to 3
Set CV 2 between 7 and 14
I set both of my engines at 7.
The solutions seems to work. Good luck.
RDG1519 This is an electrical conductivity issue. The Broadway SW-7 has a CV for momentum, forward and reverse, if I am not mistaken. I am at work and do not have the manual. This value can be increased, it may be "0" at this time. This enables a "capacitor" I think to allow the loco to keep on running during the "momentary" interupt. I remember setting this for both forward and reverse. I think the value I used was 4 or 5. The original problem I had was pretty much restricted to turnouts and setting these CV's solved it. Keep us posted, Chris
This is an electrical conductivity issue.
The Broadway SW-7 has a CV for momentum, forward and reverse, if I am not mistaken. I am at work and do not have the manual. This value can be increased, it may be "0" at this time. This enables a "capacitor" I think to allow the loco to keep on running during the "momentary" interupt. I remember setting this for both forward and reverse. I think the value I used was 4 or 5.
The original problem I had was pretty much restricted to turnouts and setting these CV's solved it.
Keep us posted, Chris
Interesting!! I always put some momentum in CV 3 and 4 right away when programming a new engine or after doing a DCC conversion, so I don't think (other than a break-in / test run on DC maybe) that I ever ran mine without the momentum...and I haven't had any problems with it stopping.
Actually...now that I think of it, I do seem to remember this coming up a couple of years ago, maybe on this forum or in one of the model magazines??
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
I have a BLI AC6000 which would do the same thing and after doing all that I could to it I finally sent it back to them. The first time they told me there was nothing wrong with it and so I put it on the rails and sure enough it did the same thing. I sent it back and they kept it for about 2 months. Finally they mailed it back with a note that they found that not all the piick up wheels were not making contact with the rails, so they replaced all the wheel sets for free. It now runs like a charm but Im not sure I would buy another BLI. Just my thought.
How does the power get from the wheels to the engine? This sounds like you've got a bad connection somewhere. It may be a loose or broken wire inside. Have you opened up the shell to trace the power leads and make sure they are all solid? Since the sound dies along with the motor power, it's likely that the problem is somewhere between the wheels and the decoder. You've done enough cleaning and tried enough trackwork to tell me that it's not just dirty wheels.
I've got a Bowser trolley. The wheels have metal stub axles which join in a common insulating plastic shaft. Each stub axle slides in through a square metal bushing, which makes contact with a thin plate on the sides of the trucks. The wires to the motor (or decoder) connect to terminals on these plates. I had similar lost-power issues with the trolley. I determined that the square block bushings were only making intermittent contact with the side plates. I soldered a thin wire between each bushing and the plate, and the trolley has been much more reliable ever since. (Note that the design requires some "slop" between the bushing and the plate so that the axles can turn freely, so I couldn't just solder the whole thing together.)
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
It happens on straight, curved, turnouts, running forward or reverse, with the cab forward or backwards, up a short(but steep) grade, and down. The wheels are in gauge and clean. This happens while pulling long, short or no train. I know, its a real head scratcher! I was just curious if mine was the only one, or if others had similar problems. It is a possibility that there is some manufacturing or assembly defect. Thanks for all the questions, I was hoping I wasn't the only one with this quirk. I'm just going to tear it all down (I have to anyways for weathering), and rewire it with as many improvements as I can think of. I just didn't want to go through unnecessary tinkering if someone else found a strange tweak like "I found a bad solder joint, or a broken trace on the board". Keep asking all these questions!
This doesn't shade my opinion of BLI. It is a great (looking and sounding) switcher! and when it does run, it pulls well. Now, back to the bench/layout to re-try all the things in this post! Thanks again!
(In reverse order)
That's a good point, you might also check to see if the wheels are in gauge. I had a problem like that with a couple of Life-Like E-units. The wheels were significantly narrower than they should have been, and that was causing them to lose contact going thru turnouts and crossovers.
Unless I'm mistaken, my BLI NW-2 (same as the SW-7) doesn't have a traction tire.
There is no CV that affects the sensitivity to shorts or loss of power that I'm aware of.
Is this happening at turnouts? If so it's possible that one of the wheel flanges might be shorting out at a frog. I had that problem and had to widen the gap slightly.
Springfield PA
Don't these have a traction tire to make up for the light weight, or is that only the P2K sound switchers? That really cuts down on your power pickup footprint - if it has the traction tire wheels installed I'd swap them for the regualr wheels for better pickup. It won't pull as much but it should be more reliable power-wise.
Sound dies too. When it restarts, it lets off a long air release then continues at the previous speed. One night, everytime it stalled, I cleaned the wheels in case that was a factor. Wheels on a clean paper towel moistened with alcohol produced no black streaks, but I kept doing it. Maybe NWSL nickel silver wheels (or similar) would be better? I've got feeders to all the rails on my layout (its only 4x8 so track lengths/bus lengths aren't that long) and it also happens on the big modular layout. As far as I have seen, no pattern exists. I tried somone's idea of placing a marker (pushpin, nail, wire nut, etc) at the front pilot whenever it stalls and I had markers all along the mainline. A few places had more than one marker, so I inspected the track. It's in gauge, I cleaned it with mineral spirits, a bright-boy, contact cleaner, paper towel, rag, masonite pad, and anything else I could try; no improvement. I had 25 pushpins, and about 25 wire nuts all over the layout! I even tried to add weight by draping weights over the shell to see if that would help. It didn't. I'm just about ready to add those pickup shoes but I don't like the look of them, but if that is what it'll take, I guess I've got no choice. I'm trying to figure out a way to mount brass, or bronze-phosphor wires to be spring loaded along the axles or the top of the wheel treads to get more positive pressure contacts. It will only be pulling a few passenger cars to and from a station on my new layout so if it cuts down on pulling power, it should be okay.
I was wondering if there was a CV that controlled how sensitive a loco is to this intermittant open or short circuit? Maybe, if it is intermittant power pickup, has anyone heard of installing a capacitor as a kind of 'electric-flywheel'? Like if the loco loses power from the rails, it would use the power stored in the capacitor to get it by the no power section? I'm not going to try this with an expensive loco, but was just wondering.
I'm assuming you gave the wheels a thorough cleaning too?? Sound engines are always more prone to pick-up problems, I've had an engine run as you describe and it turned out a little bit of flux had gotten onto the rails when soldering a connection and had gotten onto a few spots on the wheels. Once cleaned the engine was fine.
Does the sound still work when the engine stalls, or does the sound go out too?? Only other thing that comes to mind right now is that I've seen it happen if an engine is far away from the nearest power feeder connection that the sound will still work but the engine will slow down and stop. I guess next time you run it you could try to see if there's a pattern, like it only stalls when it's far from the nearest track power connection.
I'm still having problems with stalling, was wondering if I'm the only one or if anyone knows a fix.
I'm rolling along (straight or curved, not always the same place) and the SW7 just stops in its tracks. Then it just starts up again and keeps on like nothing ever happened. Sometimes it needs a nudge, most of the time it doesn't. I'm running NCE at home and Digitrax at the club. No other locos (Atlas U-23 and BLI RSD-15) have the same problem. This happens on my 4x8 layout and our clubs' modular layout. I took it apart and cleaned a lot of oil from the axle ends, put some washers between the sideframes and the contact plate to give a little pressure between the contact and the axle/wheel, but it's no better, no worse. I know small switchers are finicky but I don't see a lot of others' having this problem with this loco. Track is in gauge, clean and in good shape, the loco pretty new since it doesn't run well. Oh, this happens more when slow, but also when it's going fast(although maybe less often) and it happens on different layouts where noone else has any problems(even a guy with a little John Bull or something like that). Any CV's I need to change? Anyone figure out a way to improve contact or wiring? If it is trackwork, OK, but I'm wondering if anyone else is having similar problems or has an unusual fix.