Hi!
As mentioned in previous postings, I am looking to rebuild my 11x 15 two layer layout after the Holidays, and look to convert to DCC (probably 8 amp Digitrax Super Chief) at that time. Anyway, I have a few oddball questions that I look to you all for help........
- Can I continue to power my turnout machines with a DC powerpack as I am doing today? Yes, I know I can power them with DCC methods, but wish to start out as simple as possible.
- Digitrax advertises a 20 amp power source. Is it to my benefit to get that, and have 4 - 5 amp boosters? I suspect I might be confused over the relationship between the boosters and the power source.
- I believe the layout will probably be broken into a number of blocks (4 - 6), probably one for the lower level staging, one for each of the two main lines, one for the engine terminal, and one for the yard & sidings. I realize a circuit breaker will be needed for each block, but what else would I need?
- Some folks have urged me to go wireless. The "go anywhere" benefit is obvious, but what cost offsets will I incur if I do so? And of course, are there additional problems inherent with using wireless?
Wow, that's all for now ----- I'm sure I'll have more, especially when its decoder buying time!!!
Thank you,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44Can I continue to power my turnout machines with a DC powerpack as I am doing today? Yes, I know I can power them with DCC methods, but wish to start out as simple as possible.
mobilman44Digitrax advertises a 20 amp power source. Is it to my benefit to get that, and have 4 - 5 amp boosters? I suspect I might be confused over the relationship between the boosters and the power source.
mobilman44Some folks have urged me to go wireless. The "go anywhere" benefit is obvious, but what cost offsets will I incur if I do so? And of course, are there additional problems inherent with using wireless?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
You can most definitely continue powering your turnout machines with a DC powerpack. You can keep handling it as a separate set of wiring with no real drawbacks, and you save some rewriring, to boot.
You're describing the relationship between the PS2012 and the boosters correctly. Unless you expect to need all of its capacity, it might be more power than you need, but if you think you'll be using four 5-amp boosters, then it would make sense. On an 11x15 foot double-deck layout, I'm not sure you'll need that much capacity, unless you plan to have a lot of trains running at once, and many or all of them are sound-equippepd, or you have a lot of passenger cars drawing power for lighting from the rails. Having more juice availabe than you need doesn't hurt in this case.
As a comparison, on the Operations Road Show layout we use four 5-amp boosters for train control on a 30x60 foot layout where we only run up to six or seven trains (usually with two locomotives or less, each) at a time.
From a high-level view, you have the right idea on the circuit breakers. If you plan to be using sound-equippped locomotives, I strongly recommend the DCC Specialties PSX line of circuit breakers over anything else on the market right now. They have the smarts to handle sound-equippped locomotives that most other circuit breakers do not have.
Before I tried wireless, I was skeptical about its benefits. I only had to use it for two operating sessions before I was sold on it completely, and strongly prefer it. Not having to look for the next plug-in panel is very liberating, and keeps you focused on what's happening on the layout, as opposed to on the fascia.
In the Digitrax world, with the current simplex radio design, figure on a $40-$50 premium per throttle for radio. You'll still need at least one UP5 panel, since you still need to plug in to acquire or create consists. With an 11' x 15' room you'll probably be able to get by with a single UR91 receiver ($150 list).
Now, having said that, what I'd recommend for wireless Digitrax right now is to start out with a few UP5 panels around the layout and run tethered for a few more months until the duplex radio comes out and people have had a chance to use it for a while. I don't know whether Digitrax's duplex radio will cost much more than its simplex radio, though my guess is that there will be at least a small premium. If it proves out quickly to be reliable, you might find the duplex radio's ability to build consists and acquire locomotives without being plugged in to be worth any added cost.
While Digitrax's simplex radio throttles and duplex radio throttles can coexist on the same Digitrax-equipped layout (as demonstrated at the Louisville NTrak meet a few months back), you might find it prudent to hold off on going wireless until you see whether the new system will be worth any added cost. Supporting both systems on a single layout adds the cost of an additional radio receiver, as a UR91 receiver only supports simplex, and the coming UR92 only supports duplex, even though they'll play together nicely on the same Loconet.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I believe strongly, no, vehemently, that 20 amps is very close to twice what you will ever need. For the layout you describe, two 5 amp systems slaved to a central controller will be plenty. That will run 10 sound-equipped engines at a time pulling substantial loads.
If you were going to be running 10-15 engines, consisted or not, with three or four operators, and those engines were pulling 20 car consists up slopes greater than 2%, you might be on the edge. But I think two 5 amp sources should run your size of layout handily. If you bifurcate your layout into two main bus districts, how many engines are you likely to have in one district working very hard at a time? If you can reasonably foresee having three triple-headed diesels with sound struggling up grades in one district concurrently, then you would want more power....possibly.
-Crandell
People who keep saying that you still need plug-ins around a layout to use wireless obviously haven't had any experience with anything except Digitrax.
With an NCE ProCab Radio system you never need to plug in to do anything. Everything is really wireless control, even programming.
Also, as others have advised, 20 Amps is really overkill for a layout of your size. We're running a 20 x 40 foot HO scale club layout from three 5 Amp boosters with the layout divided into three power districts, and we have never had a lack of power to run multiple sound-equipped engines. A basic 5 or 10 Amp system should be more than adequate for you.
mobilman44 Hi! As mentioned in previous postings, I am looking to rebuild my 11x 15 two layer layout after the Holidays, and look to convert to DCC (probably 8 amp Digitrax Super Chief) at that time. Anyway, I have a few oddball questions that I look to you all for help........ - Can I continue to power my turnout machines with a DC powerpack as I am doing today? Yes, I know I can power them with DCC methods, but wish to start out as simple as possible. - Digitrax advertises a 20 amp power source. Is it to my benefit to get that, and have 4 - 5 amp boosters? I suspect I might be confused over the relationship between the boosters and the power source. - I believe the layout will probably be broken into a number of blocks (4 - 6), probably one for the lower level staging, one for each of the two main lines, one for the engine terminal, and one for the yard & sidings. I realize a circuit breaker will be needed for each block, but what else would I need? - Some folks have urged me to go wireless. The "go anywhere" benefit is obvious, but what cost offsets will I incur if I do so? And of course, are there additional problems inherent with using wireless? Wow, that's all for now ----- I'm sure I'll have more, especially when its decoder buying time!!! Thank you, Mobilman44
1. Yes, absolutely. If you should later decide to add DCC control of them, you won't have to go back and add a bunch of wiring because you kept it the old way for now. So keep it the way you have it and gradually switch over if you decide to.
2. It's not a bad option, but definitely overkill based on your previous descriptions. You're not goign to need 3-4 boosters to run the layout you described.
3. Just the circuit breakers. Maybe some terminal strips to consolidate the wiring. The track will need gaps in both rails at the borders of these power districts.
4. Wireless can be added at any time. Digitax will upgrade the non-radio throttle to radio for the same price as the difference between buying the radio throttle in the first place. Don't discount the IR wireless, it works very well on my friend's 10x15 N scale layout - although he does have a drop ceiling installed with white tiles. The IR recevier he has installed near the top of a backdrop and you generally do not have to poitn the throttle right at it for it to work. The 'regular' DT400 throttle comes with IR capability, all you would need to add is a UR90 IR receiver. Iwould hold off on going radio until Digitrax releases their new system. .
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I also have to add that after reading the details on the DCC Specialties PSX line of circuit breakers - I am NOT happy at the changes they made from the older Tony's PowerShields. The Powershields, as well as all the relay based breakers, interrupt BOTH rails when a short is detected. The PSX breakers only interrupt one side of the track, seems like a step back to other low-cost breakers. I never has a problem with sound decoders - I guess it depends on how many you have, but with 5 sound locos running(2 QSI, 2 Loksound, 1 Soundtraxx DSD), I deliberately shorted my track to trip the breaker, and when I removed the short they all started right up with no problems. I don't doubt that this can happen, but like a lot of things revolving around DCC, I think it gets exaggerated. I'm not sure of a reason for this phenomenon, other then DCC is still relatively new and perceived as extremely complicated. Sort of a reduced version of the 'common knowledge' that gets peddled to novice computer users.
Folks,
Thanks for the info, I am getting smarter with each posting (I have a long way to go however).
One area I am still unclear about:
As you all wrote, a 20 amp power supply is not needed, and I accept that. But I am still unclear as to the relationship (powerwise) between the power supply and the boosters.
Assuming I will have 5 blocks, and will be running a couple of 4 loco consists with lights and sound, I suspect that 10 amps of power would be more than adequate - but probably not a major waste.
Sooo, assuming that is true, what size & how many power supplies would I need, and what size & how many boosters will I need?
Thanks,
mobilman44 Folks, Thanks for the info, I am getting smarter with each posting (I have a long way to go however). One area I am still unclear about: As you all wrote, a 20 amp power supply is not needed, and I accept that. But I am still unclear as to the relationship (powerwise) between the power supply and the boosters. Assuming I will have 5 blocks, and will be running a couple of 4 loco consists with lights and sound, I suspect that 10 amps of power would be more than adequate - but probably not a major waste. Sooo, assuming that is true, what size & how many power supplies would I need, and what size & how many boosters will I need? Thanks, Mobilman44
Each booster needs a power supply. Bottom line. Yes, it's that simple. The power supply for the booster must be able to supply at LEAST the amount of current the booster is capable of delivering. So if you will have two 5-amp boosters, you will need a 5-amp power supply to power each one.
I suspect from your wording there's one more thing about DCC you aren't quite clear on. We tend to through the words "booster" and "command station" around pretty interchangeably, but they really aren't. Every DCC system needs a command station. The command station is the unit that generates the actual DCC commands. There can only be one command station in a given system. A booster is a device the takes the command signals and 'boosts' them to a level capable of actually driving trains - that's where you get 5 amps or more. In some brands, the booster and command station functionality is consolidated in a single box. Digitrax is like this. The DCS100 is a command station and 5 amp booster. The DB150 is also a command station and booster, although its command station functionality has fewer features than the DCS100. The Digitrax command station/booster units can be configured to disable the command station functionality and operate as simple boosters. The number of boosters in a system is limited mainly by your wallet. You can have 50 of them hooked to a 10x20 layout. It would be overkill in the extreme even if you modeled in O scale, but you COULD do it.
For your total of 5 power blocks, with 2 boosters, you would be looking at the Super Chief set, with the DCS100 acting as command station and booster, with a power supply for it. And a DB150 configured as a booster only, with a power supply for it. You would also need a total of 5 circuit breakers. Some brands group 2 or more breakers into one device. Whatever combination gets you 2 on one booster, 3 on the other will work.
The power supply supplies the raw electricity to the booster. The booster "Boosts" a low current Digital signal and sends it out to the track. You need at least one of each for DCC. You also need one Command station. The Command station makes the digital signal that the booster "Boosts".
With Digitrax equipment (and others) the Command station and booster reside in the same box. So the only extra item needed is a suitable power supply. Your power supply should be able to provide at least the voltage and current that the booster is rated for. e.g. a 5 amp booster for HO scale will need a power supply capable of producing at least 14 volts at 5 amps.
Two 5 amp boosters will need either two power supplies or a single large supply that can power both. The Digitrax PS2012 would power both with room to spare but it's a little pricey. Two PS515 power supplies would power both for less investment.The added advantage is that they could be located in different areas instead of running power supply wires all over the place in addition to the DCC track bus wires.
A DCS100 Super Chief starter set will get you a DCS100 Command station/booster, a DT400 throttle, and a UP5 panel. All DT400's are infrared equipped so adding a UR90 infrared receiver would be the only item needed to go infrared wireless. This may be adequate for your wireless needs. If not, you would need a DT400R throttle and a UR91 radio receiver.
Digitrax is currently testing a new radio throttle and receiver- DT402d and UR92. These will be released some time soon (I hope). We had the opportunity to play with them at the NScale convention in Louisville. One of the UR92's was hanging on my module's skyboard.
For the time being, you might wish to refrain on purchasing UR91. All DT400's will be able to be upgraded to DT402d's. They would then only work with UR92 receivers. They will still be infrared capable and work with the UR90. (At least that' s what I was told by tech support)
For a second booster, Digitrax offers the DB150. It is also both a command station and booster in one box. The DB150's command station is easily disabled so that only the booster operates. You can only have one command station on the system and the DCS100 is a much better command station. If you feel that a second throttle will be needed, the most economical path would be to purchase it and the DB150 as part of the Super Empire Builder starter set. You'll get and extra UP5 panel for about the same cost as just a booster and Throttle.
For the two boosters you will need power supplies. Two Digitrax PS515's or two Magna Force MF615's will do the trick. I use both types personally and on club equipment.
Martin Myers
Mobilman,
Check your PM's.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
cacole People who keep saying that you still need plug-ins around a layout to use wireless obviously haven't had any experience with anything except Digitrax. With an NCE ProCab Radio system you never need to plug in to do anything. Everything is really wireless control, even programming.
MRC's Prodigy Advanced Squared Wireless system also does NOT require you to "plug in" ever.
It is partly because of Digitrax's requirements to constantly be plugging/unplugging that I lean towards NCE ProCab Radio, or MRC's Prodigy Advanced Squared Wireless instead (if I were to go wireless). Constantly pluging in/out just to change which loco you're controling or programming would become such a pain -- especially if you're (a) in a rush to "rescue" a train from impending doom, and/or (b) beyond arm's reach of a plug. Then, for those with large layouts, consider the cost of all those plugs... YIKES !!!
I guess because it's second nature plugging in to acquire an address really doesn't seem that much of a pita to me. I plug in to acquire, unplug, run my train, plug in to dispatch, unplug, go home.
I have found that my Digtrax radio worked from day one. Never had to add repeaters or little strips of aluminum foil to get better reception. (NCE finally got that straightened out). Of course their polled system makes it nearly impossible to have more than one radio controlled layout going in the same venue.
Programming and monitoring the system with Free $$ JMRI is so nice as well. How's that MRC computer interface coming? We've had one for 15 years.
You see, every system has its drawbacks. Running a layout without a few plug in panels is like going on a boat without that doesn't have a life preserver.
Gentlemen,
Thanks again for all your help and patience. I do have one more question (there will always be at least "one more")......
I have read (in Kalmbach's revised DCC MADE EASY) where some DCC systems are AC or DC power. Obviously (?), our HO locos run off of DC power. So, what would the use of AC power be referring to???
Isn't it amazing that Digitrax threads always seem to bring out the NCE and MRC zealots? FYI: I was operating via Digitrax radio throttle for years before anyone else was able to.
Just to be clear, one can program wirelessly with Digitrax using Ops Mode. One can also "release" locos wirelessly, as well (it's a DT400R option). One only needs to plug in to aquire a loco, make/break an MU, or read a decoder on the programming track. The new DT402D will eliminate all that, however one would still need to plug in once after turning on the layout to synch the throttle to the system.
mobilman44,AC vs. DC: which is DCC? Well, it depends on who you ask. DCC technically is a alternating square wave digital signal format. Since it alternates between positive and negative voltage centered at zero volts, some would call that AC. However, since it's also a square wave where the decoder only looks at the positive or the negative side of the wave (not both, apparently), then the argument can be made that DCC is actually DC. Honestly, it really doesn't matter.
At the outlet, you have 110VAC. You plug in your DCC power supply which changes it to 14VAC (or 12VAC, etc.). This plugs into the "brain"/"booster" which converts the 14VAC to a 14V DCC signal, which goes to the rails and is picked up by the decoders in the locos. The decoders all have a diode bridge which converts the DCC voltage to DC current for the motor, lights, etc.
With DCC, the signal is the power. So if you have power, you have signal. This is the reason why DCC works better than old analog carrier wave formats like Dynatrol (IIRC, they used DC current and layered over it a signal...so it was possible to have power without signal).
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
I'll add just this - since the DCC waveform is 'generated' by the command station, the power feeding it really doesn't come into play. Some DCC command station/boosters can be fed with an AC or DC power supply. The square wave signal of DCC is generated electronically. Most of the circuitry inside the booster and command station runs on DC, so it gets rectified inside anyway. Depending on the way the power input circuitry is designed, it can be powered with AC or DC of the appropriate voltage. Most DCC power supplies are AC simply because that makes them simpler and cheaper, and what's the point of providing DC when AC works just as well?
The power supply voltage does matter - Most systems allow you to set the DCC 'voltage' to the track. Digitrax has a 3-position switch on the front that supplies about 12 volts at the N scale setting, 15 at the HO setting, and 18 at the O/Large Scale setting. Obviously (or maybe not so obvious), you can't get 18 volts out with 12 volts in. On the opposite side - the Digitrax boosters can take an input up to 22 volts, however if you set it for N scale(12 volts out), there's 10 volts that has to go somewhere - and it does, mostly as heat. You want to use an input voltage slightly above your desired output voltage, but not too far above. That's why most DCC power supplies put out around 16.5 volts. Not quite enough for running large scale, but fine for HO and N.