Just musing. Questions are rhetorical.
Remember when CD players first came out? They retailed for about $1800+ and played one CD at a time. I bought the first of the low priced ones (a Philips.....they invented the process) for $480.
Now we can pick up multi-function DVD CD players for $29 at the supermarket.
I wonder why the sound decoders..Tsunamis, QSIs etc. all hover around $100+ ? Like most things there is nothing intrinsically worth more that a few dollars in the decoder. The manufacturing costs are low in Asia. The R & D I suppose will take some time to be paid back.
'The answer is just demand, I suppose. Not enough economy of scale. for the makers to start competing. They sure are not competing now!
Well, maybe in 25-30 years I can pick up a Tsunami for $29 like a DVD player now! Lot of good it will do me.
How much were basic 4-function motor decoders when they first came out? And when was that? (I wasn't active in the hobby then, so I don't have an recollection. Sorry.) My guess is, though, they were around $50 as little as 10-12 years ago. Now, you can get bulk-packs of these for about $12 a unit.
Right now, there are a few things keeping the price high. Supply and demand, for one. We want sound engines, and the manufacturers are buying up most of the production to put them in new units at the factory. The decoder makers have to give the big guys a deal, too, so that cuts into profits and they have to make it up on the retail side.
It's also a fast-changing product. The technology is improving rapidly, so they can't just develop a chip and then sell it for 5 years. They have to keep up with improvements, and that means more and more spent on development.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SoundTraxx, Digitrax, NCE and TCS decoders are all made in the USA, not Asia. I'm not sure about QSI, but believe that they, too, are made in the USA. Lenz decoders are made in Germany.
MRC decoders are all made in China. That's why MRC decoders are cheaper than the other brands.
Trying to set a value on a decoder based only on the cost of components is like trying to say that a loaf of bread is worth only 10 cents because that's the cost of the ingredients.
What about all of the research and development costs? How much does an automated, computer-controlled, surface-mount electronics assembly line that produces the decoders cost? I once saw a figure of $25,000 each for such a machine, and you need more than one if you intend to produce more than one type of decoder. And since lead soldering is involved, you must no doubt have an EPA license to operate, as well as a myriad of local rules and regulations to abide by and pay local taxes and fees.
And then there's building rent and utilities, employees to pay, and don't forget the packaging and distribution costs. On top of all that, shouldn't the owner make a little profit for all of his investment?
I remember very well the early days of DCC when a decoder cost $45-$50 each and had only one function (headlight). Sound was out of the question back then. And absolutely no warranty. If you wired it wrong and blew it out, tough. Today you have companies offering "Goof Proof" and two year warranties, even on sound decoders.
Yeah, see I mentioned R&D as the prime factor needing payback in my OP.
The answer has two parts: they are not mass produced (they're hand assembled to a large extent), and they don't have a large market...if each manufacturer/distributor sold 50,000,000 a year, we'd be buying them for $30 MSRP, probably a lot less.
OtisRemember when CD players first came out? They retailed for about $1800+ and played one CD at a time. I bought the first of the low priced ones (a Philips.....they invented the process) for $480.
I have a 5-disc DVD player, but it still plays one disc at a time, we'll never get away from that. Oh, and the development of CD technology was a joint effort between Sony and Phillips.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
OtisI wonder why the sound decoders..Tsunamis, QSIs etc. all hover around $100+
Well I guess the GOOD ones still are about $300.... But I presume you meant the middle of the road common ones like Tsunami - Loksound - QSI.
jasperofzeal I have a 5-disc DVD player, but it still plays one disc at a time, we'll never get away from that.
I have a 5-disc DVD player, but it still plays one disc at a time, we'll never get away from that.
Oh, Jasper are you yanking my chain? You know I meant that it had a single disc function rather than a multi tray. But I should have been more precise.
Texas Zepher They don't. I remember when they were $300. Well I guess the GOOD ones still are about $300.... But I presume you meant the middle of the road common ones like Tsunami - Loksound - QSI.
They don't. I remember when they were $300.
Wow, really? I can see why the DCC transition had such a slow start. How many people out there actually bought a decoder for $300 I wonder? I suppose there were always those with deep pockets who were buying brass locos and spending such money for decoders. But the sound decoders must have taken a very long time to get going.
And you mean there are still decoders that cost $300! Seriously? Do you have any of those? I would be interested to know what better features they have than the middle of the road $100 jobs. I have been living in a hobby backwater for sure. But then I mean literally. I am so far from an LHS up here in the hills and I never have been to a train show. There is so much about the hobby I don't know.
As or my original point, yes, economies of scale, as I mentioned, are the main holdback. We need more fans!
Consider the MRC 0001665 The Steam Sounder or the MRC 0001666 The Diesel Sounder at less than $30 each at Tony's Train Exchange and other retailers.It does sound only (no lights or motor control) but the $30 package includes a 1 inch speaker .
There is also the Digitrax SFX064D which contains both Diesel and Steam sounds for $55 which also has a 1 inch speaker included. The SFX064D has 6 FX functions for lights and can also be reprogrammed. There are over 20 sound files at http://www.digitrax.com/sounddepot.php The reprogramming requires a Programmer ($68), the SoundLoader software is free.
Otis jasperofzeal I have a 5-disc DVD player, but it still plays one disc at a time, we'll never get away from that. Oh, Jasper are you yanking my chain? You know I meant that it had a single disc function rather than a multi tray. But I should have been more precise.
'Twas yankin'....
OtisWow many people out there actually bought a decoder for $300 I wonder?
OtisAnd you mean there are still decoders that cost $300! Seriously?
Do you have any of those? I would be interested to know what better features they have than the middle of the road $100 jobs.
But then for me they do have one additional feature that I need / want. They have external interfaces so I can control the sound from things other than a DCC controller.
It may just be that the manufacturers have decided the $100 mark is the magic number. Many electronic items are priced this way. As the product begins to drop below the magic point it is discontinued and the new improved item takes its place.
Being self emloyed myself, there is a price point that if dropped below, it just makes no economic sense to keep the doors open. One could stay home and lose less money.
Correct. Every manufacturer has a target price when developing a product. Of course that target is determined by the market. Correctly projecting that "magic number" falls to the manufacturer. You can build an advanced decoder with every imaginable feature but will enough people buy them? Short change the features to hit the price point and watch them go bad on the shelf. Determining the correct balance of features and price is the key to being in business long enough to develop tomorrows decoder. MRC's are flying off the shelves because even with their limited features and reliability, ya can't beat the price.
http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/home.php?cat=186
$52.
I thought I read that the NCE circuit boards were made in Asia, but assembled (wired/sockets) and packaged in the US??? I just looked at a D13 I have, but is has no info about this on the package.
It takes a big jump in demand or a maverick manufacturer to break the "magic" number set by manufactuers, alright.
Perhaps you all remember that home market computers always hovered around $1500 for about a decade. And nobody was retailing the old stock for big discounts. The computers just kept getting better and better, but the base price was still $1500 to $1800 for years. Then came the leap in demand for as schools began to buy them in bulk, and huge, huge orders started going out for the regular computers in school labs ( I taught in them) and even laptops began to be ordered in bulk. With Dell stepping in to meet that, everyone had to go along.
With decoders, demand is just not going to leap. And the market is too small to prompt knockoffs from Asia (who would want to spend all that time installing a questionable one anyway?).
Nevertheless, being a cynic, I believe there is a tacit understanding among decoder manufacturers to keep the prices where they are. In such a small market it would be a mistake to start competing.
I wish folks wouldn't compare mass market consumer products like CD players and computers to DCC decoders and other hobby items. They aren't even remotely the same. Sure, they may use some of the same materials, but the market and the competition are totally different.
Think of this, there may be 250,000 model railroaders in the USA. Of which, perhaps 55% are in HO scale (approx. 137,500), and of those only 25% are DCC users (34,375). Of those 34,375 HO DCC model railroaders, how many are willing to even have sound, or install their own? Half? 3/4rs? IOW, there's probably only a market in the USA for sound decoders that numbers less than 30,000 people.
There are 300,000,000 people in the USA. How many have CD players? How many have computers?
There are economies of scale, and model railroading just doesn't have the numbers.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Hey, Paul.
I think you will see by reading carefully, that everyone, including those referring to CD players and computers has made the same point as you are arguing. You point was my initial reason why we dont see cheaper sound decoders. So don't get bent out of shape.
I did say my questions were rhetorical. That was because I went on in the OP to make all the points made subsequently as reasons for the price remaining where it is. I just made them more succinctly.
Otis,I'm bent out of shape? Really? It's amazing how folks can read emotion into someone's post when it wasn't there to begin with. I swear, I could post entries from the phonebook, and folks would say that I shouldn't be so (fill-in-the-blank emotional state) when I posted that John Doe's phone number was (000) 555-1234.
As for "rhetorical questions", why even post them? One posts on a forum to discuss points made. Asking a bunch of questions after prefacing it with "Questions are rhetorical" is rather odd, isn't it? I mean, if I started a post with "Just a rhetorical question, why are Kadees so expensive compared to McHenrys and X2F's?", should I be surprised that I got some flack in response? If I replied to that flack with "It was just a rhetorical question," wouldn't the natural response be, "Then why did you bring it up in the first place?" Hey, I'm just sayin'...