tomikawaTT desertdog I don't really want to design my layout around the wiring, and I have a lot of it, including track power, building lighting, animated signs, working stop lights, working crossing signals, a sound system, etc. I'll just stick with my Posi-taps and save the soldering for something I can build at my workbench. John Timm What I advocate is hardly a matter of designing the layout around the wiring. Rather, it's a matter of designing and installing the wiring around the physical limitations of an arthritic old coot who's about as flexible as an Egyptian obelisk. All it takes is bringing the wires from the rails, signals, buildings, etc., from wherever they pass into the netherworld along a frame member to the edge of the benchwork. No spiderweb of wires under the benchwork, just straight runs to the edge of it. I rather suspect that the places where you use Posi-taps are the places where I use stud terminals with nuts on them. I also suspect that my approach is, ultimately, less expensive - I can connect five wires to a single terminal that costs less than an single Posi-tap (it consists of one #8 machine screw, two nuts and a few washers.) It's also a lot easier to mark a terminal on a terminal block with a permanent, easily-read, wire identification code. Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
desertdog I don't really want to design my layout around the wiring, and I have a lot of it, including track power, building lighting, animated signs, working stop lights, working crossing signals, a sound system, etc. I'll just stick with my Posi-taps and save the soldering for something I can build at my workbench. John Timm
I don't really want to design my layout around the wiring, and I have a lot of it, including track power, building lighting, animated signs, working stop lights, working crossing signals, a sound system, etc.
I'll just stick with my Posi-taps and save the soldering for something I can build at my workbench.
John Timm
What I advocate is hardly a matter of designing the layout around the wiring. Rather, it's a matter of designing and installing the wiring around the physical limitations of an arthritic old coot who's about as flexible as an Egyptian obelisk. All it takes is bringing the wires from the rails, signals, buildings, etc., from wherever they pass into the netherworld along a frame member to the edge of the benchwork. No spiderweb of wires under the benchwork, just straight runs to the edge of it.
I rather suspect that the places where you use Posi-taps are the places where I use stud terminals with nuts on them. I also suspect that my approach is, ultimately, less expensive - I can connect five wires to a single terminal that costs less than an single Posi-tap (it consists of one #8 machine screw, two nuts and a few washers.) It's also a lot easier to mark a terminal on a terminal block with a permanent, easily-read, wire identification code.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
Chuck, this sounds good, however, the feeder wires that are soldered to my track are 18 ga, while the main buss wires are 12 ga. The only way I can get away with 18 ga. feeders is by keeping them short 6-8 inches. Anything longer creates too much of a voltage drop for my Oscale locos. I would seriously consider if I was in HO.
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Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Grimmy, for my 2c worth, I have been using suitcase connectors to my track bus for severl years on my modules, which get a lot of vibration in transit, but perform flawlessly at setups and shows. My secret is using stranded #12 for bus wires. Instead of cutting strands, I have studied them, and they squish (techy term, eh?) the wire so there is actually more contact area due to the tapered slot. The other thing I do because my drops are #20 ( I got a lifetime supply in a partial spool of two conductor thermostat wire at a hardware store bargain table) is double them up for an inch with a twist before inserting and clamping, which I do with an old channel-lock. Have fun and get those trains running. See you at Chilliwack this weekend? John Colley, Port Townsend, WA
rrinker, funny you should mention boat-launching techniques.
I once did "launch" my small craft (from that same trailer) before being all the way to the water, and did some significant damage to the drive. The incident taught me always to have a safety chain from the trailer to the bow, and NEVER to remove it before the trailer wheels are wet.
Now, back to train stuff: One more thing about those suitcase connectors: They are generally good for one use only; trying to re-install one after it's been applied and removed is inviting more irritation.
"As for the people who object to standing on their heads under the layout with a hot soldering gun in one hand - move the (fillintheadjective) busses (and other wiring) to the edge of the benchwork, just inside the (easily removeable) fascia panels. While you're at it, move your switch machines, track occupancy detectors, etc. etc. to the same area. Then you can do your wiring sitting on a chair in the aisleway, and not worry about having things fall in your eyes. Making that minor change has made my own life a lot simpler and more comfortable."
garylaSpeaking as a retired electrical contractor, I'd just say : Be sure to use the correct size for the gauges of wire involved and learn to install them CORRECTLY, or don't use them AT ALL. They're only worth the convenience and extra cost if they're done right. They were really meant for electricians to make quick, easy, mass-production connections inside rows of light fixtures with a light amperage load on the wire tapped onto the through conductor. But they've been widely misused and abused, with predictable results.
Speaking as a retired electrical contractor, I'd just say :
Be sure to use the correct size for the gauges of wire involved and learn to install them CORRECTLY, or don't use them AT ALL. They're only worth the convenience and extra cost if they're done right. They were really meant for electricians to make quick, easy, mass-production connections inside rows of light fixtures with a light amperage load on the wire tapped onto the through conductor. But they've been widely misused and abused, with predictable results.
Although I've only been using IDCs (suitcase connectors) for a couple of months now on my rewired DCC layout, I've been happy with the results so far. I use them to make the connection between my 14ga solid track bus and the smaller 18ga stranded go-between bus wire that runs to my terminal strips.
The metal clip on the IDC has a notch in it so that the wire(s) you are "crimping" to slip into the notch. That helps maximize the surface area where the clip makes contact with the outer surface of the wire. (This also reiterates the importance of using the correct size IDC for the wiring you are using to wire your layout.) Joe Fugate claims he's been using IDCs for 10+ years on his Siskiyou layout with nary a problem with them.
However, I do agree with Randy's practice concerning his crimp connections: Crimp and solder. And I've found that when I solder the crimp connection, enough solder gets underneath that it pushes the crimped indentation back out again. Ideally, a mechanical and electrical connection is the best combination for bullet-proof wiring. However, I think the IDCs do make for a nice compromise and they are easy to install.
And, thanks to Paul 3, I didn't realize that you could actually remove an IDC from a wire with just a screwdriver. Thanks, Paul!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hi!
Suitcase and other connectors definitely have their place, as does soldering and other types of electrical connection. My layout is a combo of these, with the connections that might get moved or need extra durability soldered. Smaller gauge wire (solid ONLY) are connected using the proper size suitcase connector where soldering is difficult and/or the suitcase or push in connector just makes it so much easier. Again, I only use solid wire, and would not use stranded wire with them.
Oh, a test connectivity of each connection when finished. This step could save you a lot of grief later.
While we are on the subject of connections and wiring, may I relate that the most difficult wiring problem I ever had on any layout was caused by a staple that cut thru two wires and shorted them - but only on occasion. So if you attach your wiring with staples, make sure the wires are not cut and can move easily under the staple head.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
When it came time to start construction on my layout, suitcase connectors seemed to be the big thing when looking online and in magazines. However, I didn't feel comfortable using them since I wanted to make solid connections on my wiring where I needed to splice wires together. However, I had no experience with soldering whatsoever.
About that time, Model Railroader had an article on soldering wiring. It didn't look as hard as I'd thought it would be. I got a new soldering iron, solder, etc. and practiced on some scrap wires that I had. After that, I soldered all of my connections (except at terminals where wires are screwed in) on my entire layout. It went fast, and the connections are neat and clean. After soldering and testing the connections, I went back and sealed them with liquid electrical tape from Micro-Mark.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
What, you didn;t realize when they said "boat launch" they meant it literally, as in you are supposed to back down the ramp at high speed then stop quickly before the trailer gets wet, shooting the boat into the water?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Worst example I know (not from model railroading): taillilght wiring connections inside the frame of a boat trailer I bought. Great until the first time you launch.
On my layout I have hundreds of suitcase connections and hundreds of solder joints. They both work fine when done correctly. Suitcase connections are easier, soldering is cheaper. It all depends on the mood I am in at the time.
Count me as one of the solder guys. It's quick, easy, and cheap. If you're concerned about shorts, two tricks: liquid electrical tape and stagger the feeder conenctions - so the two are not directly adjacent to each other and could only touch if the bus wire was pulled one way or the other. One of those good Ideal wire strippers can strip in the middle of a wire run, pullign back th einsulation, and you just wrap the feeder and hit it with the sodlering gun. Several things help under the layout - a work light, not using a BLACK wire - red and white are more easily distinguished in the dark, and my soldering gun has a light bulb in it that shines on the tip.
I don't trust anything that just crimps on. Like the spade and ring terminals to connect to terminal strips - I crimp them on (with the proper tool) AND solder - I've seen too many pull out. Plus they don;t make IDC connectors for the two wire sizes I use - at least 3M doesn't. #20 feeder and #12 bus. And it would be extremely silly to use a #12 to #16 IDC, a short section of #16, and a #16 to #20 IDC.
I have used "Suitcase Connectors" for many projects and never had a problem with them. As other replies have said, it is very important to use the correct size for the wire being used and to ensure that they have been properly closed. I would think that if wire strands are being cut that the wrong size is being used. I cannot see that corrosion should be a great problem as the force on the wire/slot joint is probably in the region of tons. I am sure that that the branded manufacturers of IDC connectors will have literature available addressing the reliability of this type of connector.
I have computer equipment dating back to the 1980's which is still running with IDC and/or crimp connectors and cannot recall having a failure in IDC cables other than those caused by my own stupidity ( Removing connectors by pulling the cable etc.). I have had many faults caused by poor connectivity between plug and socket but this is often related to insufficient pressure between pin and socket or problems due to dissimilar plating having been used on these components and is not related to it being an IDC connector.
Dave
I prefer soldering. Here is what I made to suit working under my layout. You can make one to suit you, padded seat/back, adjusable angle. I have a little roll around table for tools and drink. If you have trouble getting up, just slowly roll off.
Reading some other forums, It seems some pepole do not use the right size wire to match the connector or use the proper crimp tool. Sometimes pliers do not work very well if you have not done this type of work before. Having done electrical work for some years, I have seen this happen. Many modelers have very little soldering/electrical/mechanical experience. Things to consider.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Paul, I've seriously edited these quotes for space. I hope I haven't distorted your original thoughts.
Paul3 (Suitcase cinnectors) aren't perfect, but then neither is soldering. I've seen far more bad solder joints than bad suitcases, for example.
(Suitcase cinnectors) aren't perfect, but then neither is soldering. I've seen far more bad solder joints than bad suitcases, for example.
Poor soldering technique leads to poor connections. Well-soldered connections will last for decades. Some of mine are approaching 30.
Reasons not to use them are as described above. They can "go bad" and loose connectivity, especially if you use the wrong size. They can be "fun" to install if you don't have the right tool or the right technique. You can also run out of room on the bus if you have a lot of feeders in a small location. Reasons to use them are: they are fast to install, they won't cause a short for any reason, they are quick to remove and leave almost no bare wire behind, and you don't have to solder above your head or mess with lots of terminal strips using up a lot of wire. Also, if you lift the cover, you can put a multimeter lead on the bus and find out if it's working without running to the end of the bus. tomikawaTT,I hope you're not seriously comparing the two. Aircraft electrical failure: hundreds of people die. Model railroad electrical failure: model train stops running. There is such a thing as over-building a layout, and while I certainly would not recommend a suitcase for even an auto (let along a airplane), they are perfectly fine for model railroading.
Reasons not to use them are as described above. They can "go bad" and loose connectivity, especially if you use the wrong size. They can be "fun" to install if you don't have the right tool or the right technique. You can also run out of room on the bus if you have a lot of feeders in a small location.
Reasons to use them are: they are fast to install, they won't cause a short for any reason, they are quick to remove and leave almost no bare wire behind, and you don't have to solder above your head or mess with lots of terminal strips using up a lot of wire. Also, if you lift the cover, you can put a multimeter lead on the bus and find out if it's working without running to the end of the bus.
tomikawaTT,I hope you're not seriously comparing the two. Aircraft electrical failure: hundreds of people die. Model railroad electrical failure: model train stops running. There is such a thing as over-building a layout, and while I certainly would not recommend a suitcase for even an auto (let along a airplane), they are perfectly fine for model railroading.
Granted that the consequences of failure for an airborne installation are immeasurably greater. IMHO the reliability issue is the same. Failure is not an acceptable option - ever - in any application.
As for the people who object to standing on their heads under the layout with a hot soldering gun in one hand - move the (fillintheadjective) busses (and other wiring) to the edge of the benchwork, just inside the (easily removeable) fascia panels. While you're at it, move your switch machines, track occupancy detectors, etc. etc. to the same area. Then you can do your wiring sitting on a chair in the aisleway, and not worry about having things fall in your eyes. Making that minor change has made my own life a lot simpler and more comfortable.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with soldered and stud terminal electrical connections)
I agree. I find them easy to use and easy to remove if necessary. I also use solid wire so I'm not concerned about strands being cut off. As Paul stated, using the correct size is important. My layout is 40 inches high and it is a lot easier to use the suitcases under the layout for me than soldering.
Tim Fahey
Musconetcong Branch of the Lehigh Valley RR
Capt. Grimek,As someone who has installed a couple thousand "suitcase" connectors on my club's layout (literally), I will take the opposite tack here and recommend them for model railroad use. They aren't perfect, but then neither is soldering. I've seen far more bad solder joints than bad suitcases, for example.
The cost can be mitigated by buying boxes of 100 at electrical supply houses. Last I checked, it was something like $8 per box, making the connectors about 8 cents a pop. This is a lot better than buying them at Home Depot or a hardware store where they can be 25 cents ea. or more.
Reasons not to use them is as described above. They can "go bad" and loose connectivity, especially if you use the wrong size. They can be "fun" to install if you don't have the right tool or the right technique. You can also run out of room on the bus if you have a lot of feeders in a small location.
jeffrey-wimberly,They do provide a solid connection if using the right sizes. I've never seen a suitcase connector cut any strands of any size wire, from 10AWG to 24AWG. Corrosion is not that big a deal for most model railroads (unlike a car or boat). DC or DCC makes no difference in their ability to conduct current. I don't know what type of suitcases you've used, but taking these off the bus is a snap: Open the cover, stick a medium to large sized flat screwdiver in the side of the connector (along the bus side), then twist the screwdriver. The suitcase will pop off. It's really very easy, and I've never need to splice a connection because I'd cut out a suitcase.
desertdog,I dunno about the Positaps being faster. I can clip & crimp a suitcase pretty quickly when I'm dialed in. Maybe we should have a contest?
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
maxmanConcerning the corrosion issue, I'm not qualified to speak. However, looking around the internet I see that those flat computer cables, among other things, are terminated in a form of IDC. If moisture intrusion were that much of a concern I think that they'd use a different type of termination. It would certainly seem to me that using these things in a normal model railroad environment should not be a problem. Besides, IDCs were not invented for model railroad use and adapted for use for other things. It's the other way around. So if they are such a poor product, how can they sell a gazillion of them?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
And for a dissenting opinion:
I have the wiring from the track coming down to a terminal strip. The wire is soldered at the rail, and terminates at the other end in a spade terminal that is secured to the screw terminal on the terminal strip. From the terminal strip to the bus, I have a spade terminal at the terminal strip end. The other end connects to the bus in a suitcase connector (IDC).
I don't enjoy soldering, and I enjoy soldering even less when sitting (in my case) or laying under the benchwork. My eyes are no longer the greatest. I have bi-focals and the joint to be soldered is usually too far away to be seen clearly with the reading lenses or too close to be seen clearly with the distance lenses. If you make the solder joint, you should tape it up or otherwise insulate the connection. This means another trip under the benchwork. I find the IDC much more convenient. Since I only use the IDC at the bus connections, the $15 bag of them did not break the bank.
Concerning some of the objections voiced about the IDCs, I use #12 solid wire for my power bus. There is not an issue with any strands breaking. I also use #20 solid wire to go from the bus to the terminal strip (not that far a distance). Again, no problem with breaking strands.
Concerning the corrosion issue, I'm not qualified to speak. However, looking around the internet I see that those flat computer cables, among other things, are terminated in a form of IDC. If moisture intrusion were that much of a concern I think that they'd use a different type of termination. It would certainly seem to me that using these things in a normal model railroad environment should not be a problem. Besides, IDCs were not invented for model railroad use and adapted for use for other things. It's the other way around. So if they are such a poor product, how can they sell a gazillion of them?
I am a retired electronics technician and I won't use them except for a temporary fix.
I agree with the first two posts.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I began using Posi-Tap connectors instead of "suitcase" connectors on my present layout. They are much easier and faster to install (under a minute) and I have had zero reliability problems with them.
I'm sure that a properly soldered connection is best, but working underneath a layout to solder something that is above you--usually with poor lighting, to boot--is just not my idea of fun.
Agree 100% with the previous post!
As an aircraft maintenance type, I am adamantly against anything that does not provide a positive, permanent (and/or easily separated) electrical connection that will last the lifetime of the airframe. Now, consider how many really old aircraft are still certified airworthy...
IMHO, the only acceptable connections are either hard-soldered or connected to a terminal strip with a solid, screw-down locking system.
Those, "Push the wire into the slotted bar," communications terminal strips are just as bad. Given a little vibration (heavy trucks going by) and a salt-air environment and they, too, will become unreliable.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I've used suitcase connectors before and quickly resolved not to use them again. #1 they do not create a solid connection. When you crimp the connector down onto your wire it cuts several strands as it's crimped down. This invites corrosion to enter that area. They'll work good for a while on DC but with DCC voltage drops will show up much faster. #2 On the types I've used once they're in place you're not getting them off unless you cut them out of the line. All you do there is create two more possible problem points as you have to wire in a splice.
Better to solder the first time and be done with it.
Been there and done that.