CVs are like pigeonholes - think like mailboxes if you don't know what pigeonholes are . The contents of each oen tells the decoder to do something. There are some standard ones defined in the NMRA specifications, and then there are many that vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. You need to knwo at least alittle about CVs because CVs tell the deocder what address it responds to, how much power it will send to the motor at speed step 1, whether it uses a 'short' 2-digit address or a 'long' 4 digit address, if the decoder will work on DC as well as DCC, what happens to the headlight when you go in reverse, how long it will take the loco to speed up and slow down if you just jerk the throttle wide open, and so on.
At first all you really need worry about is the address - once you have everything running you can start to tweak the operation of individual locos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi All
When I went to the National Train Show I walked up to the guys from Tony's and asked them point blank "Why would I choose one system over another?" He handed me an NCE controler and said "Tell me you couldn't run a train with this having never done it before" (which was right because I haven't ...yet!) I looked at it for a moment and realized that I probably COULD run a train with very little effort.
I see the similarities between the NCE and the MRC so I asked him about the MRC and he had no answer because they had no experience with it. Has anyone used the MRC Prodigy Wireless??? I think it's cheaper but is it good? MRC has always had good power packs and reputation so I'm figuring they still know what they are doing with DCC as well.
Paul
so, are CV's things that you program, like... say, for instance, having a 128 speed-step instead of like, i don't know... 64 step response?
i'm still way stumped on CV's. i know it stands for configuration variables, but why do I need them?
This is what i want to do: Park each of my engines on the programming track, or on the main, one at a time, and program their road # into my system. Once this is done, i want to be able to select individual locos, as well as consist them. Thats pretty much it... I'm not concerned about sound right now, but i think i'm going to hardwire a harness into my engines so that they can become sound-equipped at a later date.
I'm not even really concerned about the headlights... what is there that DCC could do? Is there like, differen't.... patterns that light would flash with? Or isn't it just that they're direction-specific and lit for whichever direction you're going?
NeO6874 wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:CV readback nakes life so much easier. It's one of the reasons I got the Digitrax DCS50. That's the "Digitrax Zephyr" if you're not familiar with their part numbers... I would have to agree being ablt to read CV's is really helpful -- esp if a loco starts acting crazy for no apparent reason (and it doesn't have a MRC decoder in it )
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:CV readback nakes life so much easier. It's one of the reasons I got the Digitrax DCS50.
That's the "Digitrax Zephyr" if you're not familiar with their part numbers...
I would have to agree being ablt to read CV's is really helpful -- esp if a loco starts acting crazy for no apparent reason (and it doesn't have a MRC decoder in it )
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Speaking of Prodigy - in the recent MRC ad in the latest MR, it mentions "computer interface with PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE". Please, PLEASE tell me MRC is not so stupid as to make their computer itnerface work with only software they supply. Such a bonehead move would preclude you from using JMRI, RR&Co, and all the others that work with multiple systems.
DeadheadGreg wrote:does anyone have anything specifically BAD to say about MRC's Prodigy Express?
Not bad per se, but limitations (important to me):
Prodigy Express will not read CVs, but will write them. Means you need to keep a notebook of CVs written to a particular decoder. A workaround is to add Prodigy Advance/Advance 2 remote throttle as 2nd controller. All Advance/Advance 2 features become available on the 2nd throttle.
No computer interface available to substitute Decoder Pro for tracking, reading, and writing CVs. Workaround (more expensive than others) is to add SPROG system to use Decoder Pro.
Current output from booster is limited (1.7 amps I believe). Enough for a small layout, but will run out of power for more than 3 sound-equipped locos.
If you can get the PE at the right price - it's a huge step up from the cheaper Bachmann EZ. But Zephyr, ProCab, and Prodigy Advance2 do a lot more - for how much extra money? To me it's a value trade-off. If I could get a PE for less than $100, I'd probably go down that road. Otherwise, one of the other systems starting at $140-$160 starts looking better (PA2 is closer to $200 street price).
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Even if a DCC equipped engine is run on pure DC, the motor is still getting pulse power like when it is run on DCC. The chips on the decoder develop the pulses just like when the decoder sees pulses from the DCC controller.
It is best to run them on pure DC, not power packs with pulse power. Not my opinion.
I use a NCE Power Cab for my own layout. Does eveything I want.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
okay, this might be a really dumb question... but are different companies controller/throttles interchangeable at all?
I ask, just because, after fiddling with the throttle for my Prodigy Express and having used my MRC Tech II power pack, I find that I like the circle throttle design more, as opposed to the NCE throttle, which you roll forwards, away from you to speed up, and backwards, towards you, to slow down. With this, you only need one hand. I think i like the idea of using both hands with the throttle, one hand holding the controller, and the other managing the actual throttle on the controller.
bahhhh... decisions decisions.
Greg, I am strictly a buyer and user...have never installed a decoder. All my engines have factory installations.
I don't know what to suggest about sound to you. I love them and won't have an engine without sound. Many threads over the past several years have the topic of too much sound...a very unpleasant symphony of sound all around the operator with decoders running pumps, steam generators, pop-off valves and injectors....it can get to be very annoying.
But I find the near silent, and somewhat geary drives in many cases, to be far more of an impoverishment of my toy train experience. So, I silence decoders not in use (press F8 on your throttle), and I reduce the master volume for all sounds to a level near 50% of what the factory settings are. QSI decoders are famous for an inital heart-stopping blast upon start-up for a new engine on one's layout. Their max volume setting is in a range from 1-15 last I checked, and all my QSI's run in a reduced setting between 6-9. You can select and raise the individual volumes as you wish...maybe your train's whistle/horn suffers too much with such a drastic reduction, so you can acquire that CV in programming and adjust it upwards or down as you wish.
You can shop around for the better sound decoders. I only have experience with Soundtraxx Tsunami, of which I have two, and I love them, QSI, and Loksound. I upgraded all my QSI's two summers ago and really do like them. You might do yourself a justice to seriously inquire about the new QSI Revolution. Digitrax and Loksound also make sound decoders. I would guess some careful buying would net you a good decoder for between $80-90, maybe considerably less on ebay? Shipping added, of course.
I would urge you to try, or buy, or borrow for a weekend, one sound engine and see if it appeals to you after two or three hours of fun. Make your decision with first-hand and hands-on knowledge.
-Crandell
Crandelll, how much did you pay for your QSI decoder?
I'm still up in the air as to whether i want sound or not.... i was running some of my athearns last night, and their motors were noisy enough to moderately suffice as being realistic to me... gah. so many decisions and choices........
Paul,
'Just About' any DCC decoder will work on DC. The older SoundTraxx sound decoders(including the 'LC' series) will be damaged if put on a DC layout. The current 'Tsnami' series will work on DC or DCC.
I have a pair of the B280LC sound decoders in my Spectrum 2-8-0's. They were easy to install, sound good - But they cannot run on a DC layout. One of these days I will replace them with newer sound decoders(with better motor control). The problem is that they just will not 'die' - and I hate to trash something that still works....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
AFAIK, any DCC decoder will work on DC. The problem is that it won't be very fast. In my experience, running a DCC'd loco on DC will make it significantly slower. There's probably some kind of voltage limiter in the circuit that makes it that way for DC.
However, there is a trick. All DCC decoders can be programmed to turn off DC-mode. In fact, all DCC decoders should be programmed to turn off DC-mode. DCC decoders with DC-mode turned on can "runaway" at high speed after a short circuit in the track. Turning off DC-mode prevents that. DC-mode is turned on at the factory for all DCC decoders.
CV29 (Configuration Variable #29) controls several things, one of them being DC-mode. Depending on what number is programmed into CV29, the result will give you DC-mode on/off, the number of speed steps (throttle notches), forward/backward (to control if a loco is long hood forward), speed table on/off (for customizing locos to match other locos), and if the loco is using a 2-digit or 4-digit address (loco number).
For example, say you have a DCC-equipped New Haven RS-11 numbered 1410 where the short hood is forward (there's a little "F" on that side). You want the control to be as smooth as possible, so you want 128 speed steps, not 14 or 28 speed steps. It's also your only loco, so you have no interest in a speed table to match other locos. If you want this loco to operate on DC-mode, program CV29=38. If you want DC-mode turned off, CV29=34.
Do the same as above, but this time the loco's address is 10. In that case, CV29=06 for DC-mode turned on, CV29=02 to turn off DC-mode. Note that in each case, the difference between DC-mode on or off is a value of 4 in CV29.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I bought a PowerCab from Tony for 149.95$, it comes complete with its own power supply.
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/nce_ssets.htm
Jack W.
Greg, in my experience a DCC-equipped locomotive (mine are all sound and dual-mode, with the latter meaning the decoder can be set to run on either DC or DCC) that is designed for dual mode operation runs just fine on a DC layout. The problem is, it would sort of be like driving a Lambourghini with a strongly limiting governor on the engine. You definitely are driving the Lambourghini, but putt-putting along at 60 mph with a tailwind. DCC offers so much more, but that requires the correct inputs to control all the decoder can provide for you.
I ran my first engine, DCC and sound (all in the same QSI decoder), on DC for several months before I switched over. My layout wiring was very simple with no gaps, but with three sets of feeders here and there to ensure good signal and voltage to the rails everywhere. I could operate the bell and whistle, as well as the lights working automatically when I reversed the engine, but that was it. Had I placed two such engines on the layout, they would both have done the very same thing that a DC pair would have done...chase each other around the layout unless I used block control...which gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it.
It is only in DCC operations that you can control each individual engine and make it do precisely what you wish. Since each decoder gets a name, its address, each decoder does what you tell it to do when you call it by name...which the DCC base system or throttle does on your behalf based on your throttle inputs.
Yes, the motor is a simple DC can motor. However, it must get its expected DC current as rectified by the decoder, which in turn gets the modified AC current from the DCC system outputs. If you place the engine on your DC tracks, and CV 29 is set at "38" (for the QSI and many others), the decoder recognizes the DC current and merely meters that out to the motor based on how much voltage you assign to the rails as you dial it in with your power source.
Does that help a bit?
thats odd... I would figure that any DCC engine could run on a DC layout, because it still has the DC motor installed; its just not getting any command signals from a DCC system.
i think i AM going to sell my Prodigy Express so i can get a NCE system... or maybe ask for that for Christmas :)
is this a good idea? And what would you guys consider a good price for the NCE starter system, including a power supply?
DeadheadGreg wrote:So let me just get this straight: I can still run DCC engines on a DC layout, yes?
So let me just get this straight: I can still run DCC engines on a DC layout, yes?
Not necessarily. Depends onif your particular system has that capability.
NCE - not at all.
DIGITRAX - yes for the Zephyr. Not sure about the SEB or Super Chief.
davidmbedard wrote:Depends on the decoder. Some are just sound, some are sound/lights, some are sound/motor, some are sound/motor/lights. All I can say is steer clear of the MRC decoders, no matter how good the price is.
Depends on the decoder. Some are just sound, some are sound/lights, some are sound/motor, some are sound/motor/lights. All I can say is steer clear of the MRC decoders, no matter how good the price is.
Just ordered my Digitrax Zephyr and some decoders. The package will be here Monday.
DeadheadGreg wrote: I'm still confused on the whole sound decoder thing.... are Control decoders and Sound decoders completely separate? Or does someone make a decoder that controls sound and the engine? I mean, of course you need the speaker installed, also... but thats implied.
I'm still confused on the whole sound decoder thing.... are Control decoders and Sound decoders completely separate? Or does someone make a decoder that controls sound and the engine? I mean, of course you need the speaker installed, also... but thats implied.
Reread the first post from David Bedard, his answer is quite clear.
j-w--
Digitrax DCS50 --
(yes,the pic is huge... but oh well)
Greg --
John Carroll in Cleveland... finishing up in December
indeed. I didn't know that was advanced consisting. See, this is exactly my problem with DCC: everything SEEMS so unnecessarily complicated, that it scares people off.
NeO, i feel you. I'm in college, still, at 22. Where do you go?