My friend has problems with certain locomotives stalling on #8 Walthers double-slip turnouts. It only appears to occur with older brass locomotives where the drivers on one side and the tender wheels on the other side are used to conduct electricity for the locomotive motor. We're talking about four-axled locomotives like 4-8-2. The outer frogs are dead, although the dead rail is shorter than the electrical pick up area of the locomotives. Shorter locomotives go through OK but they have all-wheel pickup. Is there a solution by altering the turnout rather than the locomotives?
Mark
It's probably a long turnout, so I'm wondering how the several rail bits do, not just the frogs. I have a Walthers/Shinohara #6 three-way that my engines sometimes cut out on, and if I snug up the point rail to its stock rail by shoving on the throwbar somewhat, power is restored and the engine resumes its passage. That is why I ask if it isn't something other than the frog, and if so some jumper wires might help.
I guess a methodical approach would be to find the extreme distance between the two outer pickups measuring from tender to engine front and then seeing how much of that expanse covers what part of the turnout in any one direction.
selector wrote: It's probably a long turnout, so I'm wondering how the several rail bits do, not just the frogs. I have a Walthers/Shinohara #6 three-way that my engines sometimes cut out on, and if I snug up the point rail to its stock rail by shoving on the throwbar somewhat, power is restored and the engine resumes its passage. That is why I ask if it isn't something other than the frog, and if so some jumper wires might help. I guess a methodical approach would be to find the extreme distance between the two outer pickups measuring from tender to engine front and then seeing how much of that expanse covers what part of the turnout in any one direction.
I have the exact same problem on the Walthers 3-ways. After a few weeks of tracking down the problem I found a solution. There is one small section where if the wheels slide to one side it will cause a short. I found that insulating a very small section with finger nail polish, lacquer or similar solves the problen. I'll try to post a picture tonight or over the weekend showing the exact sport. I have two of these and I like them for the space savings and one you insulate the spot, they work great. I have one Walthers #6 double slip and have no issues with it at all.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Here's a picture of how to solve the problem with the Walther's #6 3-way turnouts:
Note the red area. It is on the top side of the small rail. If you cover it with something nonconductive the problem will go away. I found this especially on my 6 axle diesels. Since putting lacquer on this area all problems with stalling have gone away.
I believe you, Jeff...it is where I seem to encounter my own "issues". I'll paint it up some time when it does it once too often.
-Crandell
Thanks for your responses, but the problem isn't a short circuit: it is an open circuit. What I don't get is that the only "dead" rails are the frogs which are less than an inch long, but the electrical pick up lengths on the brass locomotives in question are about 4 inches long on either electrical pole. If the club can't solve this problem, it is likely to rip out more than a dozen double-slip turnouts and redo a yard with regular turnouts which will result in significantly less flexibility and capacity. Oh well, I'm not a member of the club and don't see any double-slip turnouts in my future. I've got some brass locomotives and won't dare try.
You would need some good skills at soldering and about a full hour of trimming and soldering wires to various parts of the turnouts to get them to provide the power in the right places, and after all that, your brass steamer may start to short it out due to tolerances. It sounds like a nightmare to me. So, for that reason alone, I would think seriously about putting some wipers on the pilot truck and/or on the other side of the tender. You know that you will have added at least 4" to the length of the pickup base that way, and you are virtually guaranteed to have the cure.
Adding the pickups effectively will be tricky, and way beyond my own abilities, but someone out there must know how to do it.
I too have had problems with this double-slip with locos dying halfway through the crossing.
My solution was to use slow motion switch motors which maintain a constant pressure between the blade and stockrail. The basic cause is that the rail joiner/pivot which contains the end of the point blade and allows it to swivel does not always pass current through to the frog. I renewed mine by removing the existing and cutting new rail joiners in half and soldering one end onto each closure rail and reconnecting the end of the blade giving it an extra tweet to ensure contact but leaving it unsoldered.
It is time consumer but no more stalling problems once the job is done. The fault is definetly in the joint which allows the point rail to pivot not passing current on to the frog. Of course one could always solder fine jumper wires across the hinge or pivot.
Woody Woodpecker 27th June 08
davidmbedard wrote: Me thinks the Club should have researched this BEFORE installing "dozen double-slip turnouts". There are NO commercially available turnouts that I would consider RTR. They all need some adjustment before you get reliable usage out of them.The only solution I can see is to power the frog. Now, there inlies the issue. Because you have 2 possible routes, which polarity should the frog be? I have heard of someone powering the frogs on a Double Slip with 2 reversing loop controllers. When it senses the short, it changes polarity.....this is of course, assuming the Club is using DCC.David B
Me thinks the Club should have researched this BEFORE installing "dozen double-slip turnouts". There are NO commercially available turnouts that I would consider RTR. They all need some adjustment before you get reliable usage out of them.
The only solution I can see is to power the frog. Now, there inlies the issue. Because you have 2 possible routes, which polarity should the frog be? I have heard of someone powering the frogs on a Double Slip with 2 reversing loop controllers. When it senses the short, it changes polarity.
....this is of course, assuming the Club is using DCC.
David B
I agree that the best solution is to power the frog. All it takes is connecting up the SPDT contacts on the switch machine that moves the points on the opposite end of the switch. Just a few (!) $$ cheaper than two auto-reversers...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with hand-laid double slips)
markpierce,1). Do they have any other #8 switches with dead frogs? If so, does the same thing happen? If it does, replacing the double slips with regular switches won't help.2). Are the frogs in any way humped up? Can they put a straight edge down on the rail head over the frog and not see any gaps to either side? If the frog is high, it can possibly lift the tender just enough to break contact on the other truck.3). How clean are the tender wheels, journals and bolsters, and how loose are the trucks? Even if the frog is humped and dead, the other wheels should still pick up. I would check the wheels for dirt, the journals and bolsters for paint or dirt inhibiting contact, and I would try to back off on the screws or, most likely, cut a few spirals off the springs that hold the truck to the bolster. They might be too stiff. I would also check to make sure the trucks are square on the rail.4). They do have feeder wires to the outer stock rails, and to the rails immediately next to the frogs on the outer ends, right?selector,The little bits of rail on the Walthers No. 8 double slip actually work quite well. I have used one in my freight yard throat for over 5 years now, and my club's been using a few on the mainline for a couple years, as well. We have had no operational problems with the switches...other than people not being able to figure them out. Electrically, there's been no problems at all, and we run brass...including my W&R 0-8-0 with it's dinky little tender.
In any event, the internal bits o' rail have little to do with the dead frog issue. Nor does point contact make a difference. I just ran down and checked my #8 double slip, and I centered the points (w/ ground throws) on each side, and I still got power throughout the entire switch (other than the frogs...mine are dead, too).
Adding extra feeder wires is not needed. I'm powering my slip with just 4 wires. The Walthers double slip is internally connected for all parts...other than the frogs.jbinkley60,The Walthers #8 double slip is actually DCC friendly. It's inherant in the design, as it's impossible for the back of a metal wheel to come into contact with an opposite polarity rail. There's no need for laquer or fingernail polish for a double slip as that problem just doesn't exist.davidmbedard,I'm sorry, but I disagree. Both my club and myself have had no electrical or mechanical problems whatsoever with our Walthers #8 double slips. At the club, they did power the frogs, using the internal contacts in the Tortoise machines that operate it (like any other switch). For my home layout, I use Caboose Ind. ground throws and have dead frogs. I routinely run my brass over my home double slip, and the club's mainline slips have everything running over them, from Big Boys to Trackmobiles without stalling. Neither the club's, nor my own slips, needed any adjustment at all.Woody Woodpecker,It's not the frog so much as the point rail not making good contact at either end. This can happen with any switch that uses a rail joiner for a hinge on the point rail. Cleaning the point contact area is much simpler than rebuilding the point hinge.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: markpierce,1). Do they have any other #8 switches with dead frogs? If so, does the same thing happen? If it does, replacing the double slips with regular switches won't help.2). Are the frogs in any way humped up? Can they put a straight edge down on the rail head over the frog and not see any gaps to either side? If the frog is high, it can possibly lift the tender just enough to break contact on the other truck.3). How clean are the tender wheels, journals and bolsters, and how loose are the trucks? Even if the frog is humped and dead, the other wheels should still pick up. I would check the wheels for dirt, the journals and bolsters for paint or dirt inhibiting contact, and I would try to back off on the screws or, most likely, cut a few spirals off the springs that hold the truck to the bolster. They might be too stiff. I would also check to make sure the trucks are square on the rail.4). They do have feeder wires to the outer stock rails, and to the rails immediately next to the frogs on the outer ends, right?Paul A. Cutler III************
markpierce,1). Do they have any other #8 switches with dead frogs? If so, does the same thing happen? If it does, replacing the double slips with regular switches won't help.2). Are the frogs in any way humped up? Can they put a straight edge down on the rail head over the frog and not see any gaps to either side? If the frog is high, it can possibly lift the tender just enough to break contact on the other truck.3). How clean are the tender wheels, journals and bolsters, and how loose are the trucks? Even if the frog is humped and dead, the other wheels should still pick up. I would check the wheels for dirt, the journals and bolsters for paint or dirt inhibiting contact, and I would try to back off on the screws or, most likely, cut a few spirals off the springs that hold the truck to the bolster. They might be too stiff. I would also check to make sure the trucks are square on the rail.4). They do have feeder wires to the outer stock rails, and to the rails immediately next to the frogs on the outer ends, right?Paul A. Cutler III************
Sorry, Paul, I can't answer your questions except there were problems of some sort with most or all of the slip switches..
I left the club before the slip switches were installed. The one member who was my "informant" had designed the yard with all the slip switches but became inactive after the club decided to rip them out. He had fixed some of the problems and believed the remaining problems could have been solved, However, the majority of club members decided not to make the effort. My observation was that few club members had prior experience laying track nor did the remaining members know how to power the track, at least at the time I left the club.