crossthedog Everyone helped in well-intended ways; no one is rubbing their hands together and saying "I'm going to derail this fool and enjoy watching him trash his new toy!"
Everyone helped in well-intended ways; no one is rubbing their hands together and saying "I'm going to derail this fool and enjoy watching him trash his new toy!"
Good or bad, it is the way of a forum, and this forum is no exception. There are no trolls here, although once in a while one does show up and the moderators do a good job of eliminating them.
There is often criticism of replies drifting off topic, but usually the drift is beneficial. The key is not to intentionally post misinformation or to speculate when one has no idea what may be the cause of a problem.
Beyond that, forum members who are making suggestions and trying to be helpful are much preferable to no one replying and offering advice. If we just wait for the real expert(s) to show up, little is gained.
Rich
Alton Junction
crossthedogAlso it sounds as though you're saying it would behoove me to eventually find a light board to put in there.
I have a few older DC locomotives with light boards. There is not a lot of variety in my plastic diesel fleet, so I do not know if this is typical or not.
On the locomotives I have with light boards (mostly Life-Like Proto 2000 around 20 years old), the light board functions so that the bulb (LED maybe) in the direction of operation comes on full brightness before the locomotive begins to move. Then, when the locomotive begins to move, the bulb stays at a continuous level of brightness no matter what speed the locomotive is moving.
I found this a nice feature. Now when I run my old Athearns with variable brightness bulbs, it is something I do not like.
None of my "dual mode" DCC decoder equipped locomotives do this while running on DC. The constant brightness seemed to be only a feature of DC locomotives with directional lighting.
Anyway... maybe someday (probably not) I will install DC light boards in my old Athearn locomotives.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Matt, again glad you were able to fix it. And no matter your skill level with electronics, you just improved your skills. We are start somewhere with any skill.
I was exceptionally lucky, my training in this stuff started around age 12, I'm 65 now.
So I will apologize again for being testy with some of the others. I came to this late, and read thru the whole thing reading as you both filled in missing info, and had to explain what seemed obvious to me.
That said, you really don't need a light board if you are happy with how the loco is running. In your case, the light board is just a mounting spot for part of the simple lighting wiring you already have.
The loco is not likely to run any better or different.
It is my belief that learning and understanding basics like this will be of great value to you as you progress in the hobby. Maybe later you will switch to DCC, maybe not.
In any case, understanding how and why your trains work in DC has value that will make your model train experiance better.
As I think you know I am starting on a large layout. It will be DC.
I have lots of experiance with both DC and DCC, one of a list of reasons why I stay with DC is related to this thread - I dislike all the complex wiring inside the locos with DCC.
The main reason I have never switched to DCC is that for my desired goals, the benefits would be small and expensive. That is a long discussion.....
If you switch to DCC later, it will be easy enough to just hard wire a decoder in this loco without some factory light board. If not, you are finewith what you have.
Take care,
Sheldon
SeeYou190 crossthedog Also it sounds as though you're saying it would behoove me to eventually find a light board to put in there. I have a few older DC locomotives with light boards. There is not a lot of variety in my plastic diesel fleet, so I do not know if this is typical or not. On the locomotives I have with light boards (mostly Life-Like Proto 2000 around 20 years old), the light board functions so that the bulb (LED maybe) in the direction of operation comes on full brightness before the locomotive begins to move. Then, when the locomotive begins to move, the bulb stays at a continuous level of brightness no matter what speed the locomotive is moving. I found this a nice feature. Now when I run my old Athearns with variable brightness bulbs, it is something I do not like. None of my "dual mode" DCC decoder equipped locomotives do this while running on DC. The constant brightness seemed to be only a feature of DC locomotives with directional lighting. Anyway... maybe someday (probably not) I will install DC light boards in my old Athearn locomotives. -Kevin
crossthedog Also it sounds as though you're saying it would behoove me to eventually find a light board to put in there.
Kevin, Matt's loco appears to have LED's for lights so that will provide constant brightness lighting. There are a number of different circuits that will provide simple constant brighness lighting with LED's or 1.5 volt lamps that are easy to built and install - without a circuit board.
I too have a lot of older Proto 2000 locos. Most have really good constalt lighting, some have voltage hog diode setups which I replace. My max track voltage is 14 volts, so I'm not wanting lighting circuits that suck up 2-3 volts.
And thank you for taking the time to post diagrams and photos in this thread. I'm just not that computer savy with the drawing on the photo thing, and I don't have a stock of computer generated drawings like you posted.
Looking at the picture of the shell you posted. It appears that you do have LEDs. So your safe there. One thing an incandescent bulb does very well is generate heet. When the good people of the north decided to exchange all the traffic lights to LEDs to save money on electric costs, they didn't consider winter weather. When ice and snow accumulation on the lights became a problem the only solution was to retrofit electric heaters in every traffic light. Now it cost more than the old incandescent lights to run. Problem solved. They still get iced over but now it falls off in large chunks.
You don't need a light board. Just something to tie the two motor uprights together. A twist tie or piece of plastic with slots would do the trick. You have to keep them from spreading apart from the center of the motor. I neglected that on an Atlas RSD4/5 and ruined the motor in less than a year on the clubs layout. Luckily I had kept the motor from the melted RS1. Lesson learned.
Pete.
wrench567 You don't need a light board. Just something to tie the two motor uprights together. A twist tie or piece of plastic with slots would do the trick. You have to keep them from spreading apart from the center of the motor. I neglected that on an Atlas RSD4/5 and ruined the motor in less than a year on the clubs layout. Luckily I had kept the motor from the melted RS1. Lesson learned. Pete.
@wrench567, Is there any chance you had a bad motor or a heavy load and it was running hot and melted the saddles/uprights?
If the two screws part #707113 that go through the bottom of the mainframe/chassie and into the motor saddle set #707102 are tight, you will not need a top light board or anything to tie the two motor uprights together. If the screws are tight the saddles/uprights do not move up, down, side to side or front to back without the light board. The motor will stay in place if the two bottom screws are tight, the saddles/uprights do nothing to keep the motor ends together, the shaft from moving forward/rearward or up and down.
@crossthe dog, Now a light board or a flat piece of plastic the size of a light board with slots to fit on the saddle/upright latchs as mentioned above will help keep the wires away from the flywheels.
Always check (yearly or depending on run time) that those two bottom screws are tight on all your Atlas engines.
@crossthedog, on your motor you have a red wire soldered to the brass strip that comes from the bottom of the motor. I see in your pictures, that brass strip is sticking out towards the side. The brass strip should be caught behind the little black plastic catch on the side of the motor.
See the yellow arrow pointing at the black plastic catch with the brass strip behind it.
crossthedog I believe I will try swapping the trucks first. If the couplers have been replaced, it makes sense that the trucks had to come off, and maybe the previous owner sold it before he noticed he'd put the shoes on the wrong feet. -Matt
I believe I will try swapping the trucks first. If the couplers have been replaced, it makes sense that the trucks had to come off, and maybe the previous owner sold it before he noticed he'd put the shoes on the wrong feet.
-Matt
The Atlas RS1 trucks do not need to come off to replace the couplers.
PC101.
No. The motor was never over taxed and was running great. I was just cheap and instead of buying a board replacement decoder I had used a hardwired decoder I had on hand. The locomotive was always run in a consist with four and sometimes six other RS units. Mostly on the club layout and module group setups. It probably had well over 100 hours of run time until the motor toasted. I surmise that the combination of the missing support and the flexibility of the plastic upright allows the upper brush to run at a different angle other than 90 degrees of the armature.
Since replacement with the RS1 motor and proper board replacement decoder the unit has functioned flawless.
Although the green "light boards" are commonly associated with DCC, since they eventually came to have a receptacle for plugging in a decoder, the original purpose was to provide for constant lighting, and to reverse the lights so only the light in the direction of travel would be on (which isn't really prototypical, but was a neat trick 30 years ago).
The light board had diodes to do the reversing headlights, and as Kevin mentioned, was set up so the first say 3 volts of power went to the lights. That meant if you were careful, you could reduce the power to just under 3 volts and the engine would stop but the lights would stay on..."constant lighting".
Unfortunately, that also meant that an engine with that set-up would run slower at any given power setting than other "straght DC" engines. So many DC operators removed the lightboard and hardwired the engine - two wires from each truck connected to the motor wires, and lights connected to those wires too.
It appears that is what happened with the OP's RS-1, except whoever did it used diodes with the lights so they still reversed direction...and they either chose to, or by accident, wired it up 'backwards' so it ran the opposite of normal DC engines.
Stix, thanks for this. I think this little "once upon a time" you've told constitutes a very likely reconstruction of what happened here. Interesting especially about the slower speed with the constant lighting.
The Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical. I never even noticed that it wasn't directional until I put the two locos together a couple days ago.
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
PC101I see in your pictures, that brass strip is sticking out towards the side. The brass strip should be caught behind the little black plastic catch on the side of the motor. See the yellow arrow pointing at the black plastic catch with the brass strip behind it.
crossthedogThe Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical.
Well that isn't really prototypical either. On real engines the lights aren't affected by the direction or speed of the engine. The front and rear light can each separately be set to be bright, dim, or off by the engineer.
However, model locomotives have come with automatically reversing headlights for about 30 years now, so I suspect many people who have joined the hobby in this century assume that the auto-reversing lights must be the way real engines are set up.
wjstix crossthedog The Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical. Well that isn't really prototypical either. On real engines the lights aren't affected by the direction or speed of the engine. The front and rear light can each separately be set to be bright, dim, or off by the engineer. However, model locomotives have come with automatically reversing headlights for about 30 years now, so I suspect many people who have joined the hobby in this century assume that the auto-reversing lights must be the way real engines are set up.
crossthedog The Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical.
Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, directional headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL wjstix crossthedog The Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical. Well that isn't really prototypical either. On real engines the lights aren't affected by the direction or speed of the engine. The front and rear light can each separately be set to be bright, dim, or off by the engineer. However, model locomotives have come with automatically reversing headlights for about 30 years now, so I suspect many people who have joined the hobby in this century assume that the auto-reversing lights must be the way real engines are set up. Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, direction headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs. Sheldon
Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, direction headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL wjstix crossthedog The Atlas YELLOW box RS-1 (the orange and black GN) that I have running behind this locomotive has both lights on all the time, or rather they both come on with speed, never very bright and quite dim at lower speeds. Interesting that you say that's more prototypical. Well that isn't really prototypical either. On real engines the lights aren't affected by the direction or speed of the engine. The front and rear light can each separately be set to be bright, dim, or off by the engineer. However, model locomotives have come with automatically reversing headlights for about 30 years now, so I suspect many people who have joined the hobby in this century assume that the auto-reversing lights must be the way real engines are set up. Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, direction headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs. Sheldon Very interesting point made here. Rich
Very interesting point made here.
Things people forget or don't understand.
Not everybody wants the "proto throttle" experiance of having to work every button and lever that is in a locomotive cab.
Also, before the 1950's many railroads ran without headlights at all during the day. Starting in the thirties there was a slow movement to run with headlights on in the day, and tests of gyro lights, Mars lights, etc. But it was far from universal or required.
And no ditch lights........
With my Train Engjneer throttles my loco lights come on nearly full brightness before the loco moves, and I can have a loco sit still with the lights on. That and directional lighting is close enough for me.
Rules varied considerably for a long time.......
I never really thought about it until you mentioned it, Sheldon, but that would be quite a feat for the engineer to simultaneously reverse the direction of the locomotive and the lights.
richhotrain I never really thought about it until you mentioned it, Sheldon, but that would be quite a feat for the engineer to simultaneously reverse the direction of the locomotive and the lights. Rich
Yes, but here is the hands free beauty of a model setup like mine.
Locomotive sitting on track dark. Engineer is ready to move, turns light on (I just push my throttle button a few quick times and lights come on, loco stays still). Now engineer is actually ready to go (I push and hold the button until the loco moves, it ramps up in speed and I adjust as needed).
When I stop, I slow the loco but do not shut the power all the way off, light stays lit after loco stops.
Engineer wants to back up and switches the light (I kill the power completely, push the direction button, power up and the other light comes on before the loco moves).
I just did all that with five big easy to feel without looking buttons. I did not have to remember which button is the headlight, or the backup light, or how to toggle to a function (something I still have trouble doing quicky on my phone or tablet).
I don't want the "in the cab" experiance, I want the streamlined fun version.
Same with my signal system and CTC. That too is the streamlined fun version.
Looks realistic with less "operator steps".
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell, whether or not you know how the prototype works, directional headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs.
And to clarify, I wasn't advocating setting up your model engines like the prototype. I was just pointing out that I have seen posts here and other places where it's clear the person has come to believe that automagically on-off reversing headlights are the way real engines are set up.
My own preference with is that when I hit F0 both headlights come on, with the headlight in the direction of travel bright, and the opposite headlight dim. That way, even running in nighttime conditions, I can see where the engine is and which way it's going to move when I turn up the throttle. (I believe rules/regulations require an engine doing switching to have both headlights on, at least at 'dim'?) Depending on the decoder, setting that up is as simple as changing one or two CVs. I was able to set it up even on my very first DCC-engines quite easily.
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, directional headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs. And to clarify, I wasn't advocating setting up your model engines like the prototype. I was just pointing out that I have seen posts here and other places where it's clear the person has come to believe that automagically on-off reversing headlights are the way real engines are set up. My own preference with is that when I hit F0 both headlights come on, with the headlight in the direction of travel bright, and the opposite headlight dim. That way, even running in nighttime conditions, I can see where the engine is and which way it's going to move when I turn up the throttle. (I believe rules/regulations require an engine doing switching to have both headlights on, at least at 'dim'?) Depending on the decoder, setting that up is as simple as changing one or two CVs. I was able to set it up even on my very first DCC-engines quite easily.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well, whether or not you know how the prototype works, directional headlights are a practical solution for those not interested in that level of operational minutia, or those not interested in DCC, with all its extra issues and costs.
That's fine, I understand.
My point is I don't want to hit F0, and I don't want to install, wire and program 150 decoders.
Just like I don't want a proto throttle or a CTC panel with all the separate "steps" of the real thing.