The question was raised, why a DC person would look into a DCC collum. I for one always look at the new stuff in all powering ideas. Stayed with DC at first because DCC just had problems at first, any new idea has. When sound came about, I tried that when a buddy came over (my layout is convertable in less than a min.). Liked the sound but the starts and stops of it were annoying. Later the keep-alive stuff came out which fixed most of that but by then I was getting into dead rail, will continue on that route because the new batterys coming online will make it a reality without being an electical guru. Things like recharge from the tracks and 10 min. or less recharge time on 10 hour batterys, those are here or will be shortly. For those not into trains, your cell phone will last days on one charge used heavily!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doughless trainnut1250 I don't think DC is going anywhere, but DCC is the dominant control system in our area - especially for OPs based layouts. Guy To the bolded...I know what you're trying to say, so it may be just semantics...but I would call those layouts a "club style" of layout. One that supports numerous trains, several operators, possibly even a person who's sole responibility is distpatching. My layout cannot support more than one operator..I want it that way...but it is definitely operations oriented. Enough trains to keep one operator busy, with my attention being focused upon the one train that is moving at any one time. That may not be a popular way to approach the hobby...but I can't be the only one who chooses that style of layout.
trainnut1250 I don't think DC is going anywhere, but DCC is the dominant control system in our area - especially for OPs based layouts. Guy
Guy
To the bolded...I know what you're trying to say, so it may be just semantics...but I would call those layouts a "club style" of layout. One that supports numerous trains, several operators, possibly even a person who's sole responibility is distpatching.
My layout cannot support more than one operator..I want it that way...but it is definitely operations oriented. Enough trains to keep one operator busy, with my attention being focused upon the one train that is moving at any one time. That may not be a popular way to approach the hobby...but I can't be the only one who chooses that style of layout.
You are not alone by any means. There is a LARGE number of single operator operations focused layouts out there. One guy I know has a 1200 sq foot basement filled with a point to point Industrial Switching Layout - his control system - a single Aristo Wireless Radio Throttle.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You are not alone by any means. There is a LARGE number of single operator operations focused layouts out there. One guy I know has a 1200 sq foot basement filled with a point to point Industrial Switching Layout - his control system - a single Aristo Wireless Radio Throttle. Sheldon
Sounds interesting. 1200 SF is a lot of ground to cover.
I'm sure that there are more MRRs like him and me out there. I just think they are probably less vocal than more socially oriented MRRs.
- Douglas
I think the threads posted here in Model Railroader's Forums are a pretty poor indicator of what's up with the hobby, what's popular and where the hobby is trending. Possibly the magazine is slightly better at showing what's going on. My interests in this hobby are model building and the Northern Pacific, neither of which is very well represented here in the forums (represented, meaning popularly discussed). So, I wouldn’t take any threads with trending opinions stated here, as anything more than a few people’s opinions, at best.
I just don’t think these forums are visited by enough people in the hobby to take anything as very significant! In the case of this thread, you can’t get a real feel for the popularity of DC; or, DCC, from what is discussed here. Possibly a poll might give some good data, if enough people responded.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 I think the threads posted here in Model Railroader's Forums are a pretty poor indicator of what's up with the hobby, what's popular and where the hobby is trending. Possibly the magazine is slightly better at showing what's going on. My interests in this hobby are model building and the Northern Pacific, neither of which is very well represented here in the forums (represented, meaning popularly discussed). So, I wouldn’t take any threads with trending opinions stated here, as anything more than a few people’s opinions, at best. I just don’t think these forums are visited by enough people in the hobby to take anything as very significant! In the case of this thread, you can’t get a real feel for the popularity of DC; or, DCC, from what is discussed here. Possibly a poll might give some good data, if enough people responded.
I agree that even a direct poll on this or any forum is rather un-scientific, but we have taken several such polls on here over the years with two consistant results.
We hear from a lot of people who who don't post a lot regularly - you know the ones who read but seldom post.
And, the numbers have always been about 60% DCC and 40% DC.
It would be safe to assume that users of this forum may tend to be a little more tech oriented, and that users of the Model Rairloader forum are mostly HO an N scale modelers.
If I have time later, I will do a search and see if I can find the most recent such poll.
Then when you consider that DCC is not popular wilth larger scales, 50% seems to be a pretty safe number regarding the whole hobby.
And it is consistant with what several shop owners tell me about their customers - still today.
Here in the local group I sometimes frequent, DCC use is a high percentage. But these are mostly large basement empire, operations centered layouts owned by people with the resources to build just that sort of layout. And even at that, DCC is not the choice of all.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt would be safe to assume that users of this forum may tend to be a little more tech oriented, and that users of the Model Rairloader forum are mostly HO an N scale modelers. If I have time later, I will do a search and see if I can find the most recent such poll. Then when you consider that DCC is not popular wilth larger scales, 50% seems to be a pretty safe number regarding the whole hobby. And it is consistant with what several shop owners tell me about their customers - still today.
This forum is mostly HO and N because most modelers are in HO and N. If I were to accept your 60/40 split of DCC vs DC, if ALL the large scale guys were DC it would probably move the split to 59/41 rather than 50/50.
So many of those shops have closed down that they also represent a small minority of the MRR market.
If you want some real numbers, call MB Klein and ask them how many locomotives of all scales they sold last year, how many of those were decoder equipped, and how many decoders they sold.
I also believe it to be a false assumption that the MRR forum users are any more tech oriented than anybody else. First off, my mother participates in internet forums. Secondly, MRR's, with the closing of so many local shops are forced online for imformation.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
This has been an interesting discussion as I'm getting back into the hobby and planning my new layout. I debating whether to do DC because most of my fleet are 20+ year locos and soldering is not a strong suit of mine and if I use DC then I can use them all. On the other side of it from the videos I have seen with the sound and stuff DCC is a nice option and I go have one loco that is DCC ready. I'm the one modeler who is on the fence between the 2.
Good number of my locos are all old AHM locos which might be hard to convert to DCC so they might stay in my display cases.
See, time gets away from us - 20 year old locos would have been made in the mid-90's and while many may not be "DCC Ready", that term is pretty much meaningless anyway. If they have 2 wires coming out of the motor, even if one is immediately attached to the loco frame, they are not difficult to convert. What gets tricky are ones where one motor brush is grounded to the motor case, and the motor case is the in direct contact with the frame. But this is as much mechnical work needed as it is electrical work.
As for soldering - scan this forum section, there have been many threads on soldering, which pretty much (I think) explain why some people have trouble with it. Generally, a perceived lack of ability to solder comes from either having the wrong size soldering tool for the job, or not keeping the tool clean - usually both. I cringe when I see the videos of people soldering on MRVP - not because of David Popp's shakey hand, but rather because of the dull and dirty looking soldering iron they always use.
As for some older AHM locos - if you have some of the same ones I have, they likely will be best off in the display case. I'm sure I could convert them to DCC, but all of them are early 70's vintage and have the deep flanges which will not work on Code 83 rail. I suppose I could find someone with a lathe to turn down the flanges, but they'd still be the wrong shape and track poorly compared to proper RP-25 flanges. Plus one is the good old Plymouth switcher with a top speed in excess of 200smph - the only HO loco I ever had that could roll right off the tracks like a Lionel die-cast loco. Just not worth it. I hang on to them as memories.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL It would be safe to assume that users of this forum may tend to be a little more tech oriented, and that users of the Model Rairloader forum are mostly HO an N scale modelers. If I have time later, I will do a search and see if I can find the most recent such poll. Then when you consider that DCC is not popular wilth larger scales, 50% seems to be a pretty safe number regarding the whole hobby. And it is consistant with what several shop owners tell me about their customers - still today. This forum is mostly HO and N because most modelers are in HO and N. If I were to accept your 60/40 split of DCC vs DC, if ALL the large scale guys were DC it would probably move the split to 59/41 rather than 50/50. So many of those shops have closed down that they also represent a small minority of the MRR market. If you want some real numbers, call MB Klein and ask them how many locomotives of all scales they sold last year, how many of those were decoder equipped, and how many decoders they sold. I also believe it to be a false assumption that the MRR forum users are any more tech oriented than anybody else. First off, my mother participates in internet forums. Secondly, MRR's, with the closing of so many local shops are forced online for imformation.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It would be safe to assume that users of this forum may tend to be a little more tech oriented, and that users of the Model Rairloader forum are mostly HO an N scale modelers. If I have time later, I will do a search and see if I can find the most recent such poll. Then when you consider that DCC is not popular wilth larger scales, 50% seems to be a pretty safe number regarding the whole hobby. And it is consistant with what several shop owners tell me about their customers - still today.
First, I think you under estimate the numbers of people in the larger scales.
Second, sales of decoder equiped locos are meaningless. I buy lots of non sound decoder equiped locos and remove the decoders. I suspect at least 40% of my 120 plus loco fleet came with a decoder.
And if the price is right, I have even been known to buy sound equiped locos and remove the decoders - I can think of at least five such locos in my fleet.
DCC decoders do not play well with the pulse width modulated control signal from my Aristo Throttles, so the decoders have to go.
Basic Bachmann decoders sell very well on Ebay in groups of three. I have nearly 40 spectrum steamers - most came with decoders.
So to assume that all decoder equiped locos are being sold to DCC users would be a big misjudgement.
Companies like Bachmann long ago lowered the price of non sound decoder locos to the point where in made no sense to offer DC locos. And, all those Bachmann "DCC onboard" locos come with the jumper pins to facilitate decoder removal.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSecond, sales of decoder equiped locos are meaningless.
lol - I'm sure that the individuals you have personal contact with represent a more statistically significant sample from which to draw conclusions than millions of dollars in sales figures would.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDCC decoders do not play well with the pulse width modulated control signal from my Aristo Throttles, so the decoders have to go.
lol again - Do you REALLY believe that Aristo Throttles make up a significant percentage of the overall model railroad market?
ATLANTIC CENTRALCompanies like Bachmann long ago lowered the price of non sound decoder locos to the point where in made no sense to offer DC locos. And, all those Bachmann "DCC onboard" locos come with the jumper pins to facilitate decoder removal.
I would take this decision by Bachmann as an indicator that the DCC market is substantially larger than DC - enough larger that throwing away decoders for DC is cheaper than making both types of locomotives.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Second, sales of decoder equiped locos are meaningless. lol - I'm sure that the individuals you have personal contact with represent a more statistically significant sample from which to draw conclusions than millions of dollars in sales figures would. ATLANTIC CENTRAL DCC decoders do not play well with the pulse width modulated control signal from my Aristo Throttles, so the decoders have to go. lol again - Do you REALLY believe that Aristo Throttles make up a significant percentage of the overall model railroad market? ATLANTIC CENTRAL Companies like Bachmann long ago lowered the price of non sound decoder locos to the point where in made no sense to offer DC locos. And, all those Bachmann "DCC onboard" locos come with the jumper pins to facilitate decoder removal. I would take this decision by Bachmann as an indicator that the DCC market is substantially larger than DC - enough larger that throwing away decoders for DC is cheaper than making both types of locomotives.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Second, sales of decoder equiped locos are meaningless.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL DCC decoders do not play well with the pulse width modulated control signal from my Aristo Throttles, so the decoders have to go.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Companies like Bachmann long ago lowered the price of non sound decoder locos to the point where in made no sense to offer DC locos. And, all those Bachmann "DCC onboard" locos come with the jumper pins to facilitate decoder removal.
Well you did a great job of trying to twist that all around. I have over 120 locos, easily 45 or 50 of them came with decoders. Yet I use DC. Removed or left in place for their dual mode use, don't you think other DC users are buying locos with decoders? Of course they are. So the sales of decoder equiped locos does not relate directly to DCC use.
What that percentage is I don't know, but a lot of guys on this forum by direct admission do not even own 50 locos, so my purchases alone skew the stats by one user.
True, in HO not many people use the Aristo throttles - in large scale Aristo Throttles likely represent 40% to 60% of that section of the market.
Bachmann's reasoning is sound business, satisfy both customers with one product. Adjusted for inflation there has been little or no increase in Bachmnann prices as they moved from DCC ready to DCC onboard. And they still offer DCC without sound to have that lower price point that will apeal to the non sound crowd - DCC or DC.
Here is some light reading on this subject from the past.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/225914.aspx?page=1
I have used up my quota of forum time for the month.
PS - aparrently we can no longer link to old threads - another reason to be done with this forum.
Hmm, doesn't seem to allow any sort of link, actually. Though normally I just copy and paste, not use the Insert Link
In fact, you can view source and see it is just < a > and < /a > and when you explicity change it to < a href = "<url>" > and then save - ir rips out the href part!
I guess this is a 'security' feature so links to malware are not posted. At least for certain types of sites. Link something that ends in .htm or .php and it keeps the href=, post a link to .aspx, which the forum threads are, and it strips the href.
Doughless...My layout cannot support more than one operator..I want it that way...but it is definitely operations oriented. Enough trains to keep one operator busy, with my attention being focused upon the one train that is moving at any one time. That may not be a popular way to approach the hobby...but I can't be the only one who chooses that style of layout.
You're certainly not alone in your style of layout operation. I run mine the same way, as does a friend who's also interested in operations. I enjoy the social side of the hobby, but for me, that doesn't include operations, at least on my layout. I have run on DCC layouts and, except for the sound, enjoyed it. That layout, however, could probably support 6 or 7 operators.As for wiring, mine is about as simple as it gets: two wires from the power supply to the tracks, and a number of ON/OFF switches to kill power to various sections, usually passing or staging tracks, or industrial sidings. This is not, however, block control for multi-train operation, as only one train runs at a time - one operator, one train in motion.
I have never been "on the fence" about DCC. I think that it's a great system for many users, but it offers nothing that I want or need that isn't possible with DC.
Wayne
gzygadlo This has been an interesting discussion as I'm getting back into the hobby and planning my new layout. I debating whether to do DC because most of my fleet are 20+ year locos and soldering is not a strong suit of mine and if I use DC then I can use them all. On the other side of it from the videos I have seen with the sound and stuff DCC is a nice option and I go have one loco that is DCC ready. I'm the one modeler who is on the fence between the 2. Good number of my locos are all old AHM locos which might be hard to convert to DCC so they might stay in my display cases.
DoctorWayne always provides good explanations for many issues..so you may want to refer to his post.
I'll try to put it simply. If you are planning a layout that will require multiple DC blocks to run a train around the layout (because you will be having more than one train moving at a time generally), DCC would probably make that easier.
However, if you are planning the type of layout that Wayne and I have explained, then you can go the generally less expensive route with DC and basically achieve the same results that DCC would provide.
If you want to run onboard sound in some of your locos, I would recommend having some DCC capability for your layout ( and having a clear electrical break between the two systems) since onboard sound locos are a bit phinnicky to operate with DC control, IMO...although many do it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALHere is some light reading on this subject from the past. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/225914.aspx?page=1 I have used up my quota of forum time for the month. Sheldon
I reviewed the thread you referenced. I'm surprised you think it supports your argument. You counted 31 responses from folks saying they are running DC. Out of the 2,900+ times that thread has been viewed, only 31 times did someone add a post saying they are running DC. That's about 1%.
Sheldon:
You can make the link work by highlighting it, then right clicking on it, and then selecting "Open Link" or something similar from the drop down menu.
Niusance but it works.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Interesting, right now we have two guys arguing about DC VS DCC that are both DC guys. Does this make sense to the rest of you?
NP2626Interesting, right now we have two guys arguing about DC VS DCC that are both DC guys. Does this make sense to the rest of you?
Just in case I'm one of the two guys referenced in that comment, for the record, I'm a DCC guy. And the argument is not DC vs DCC, it is about the perception of the market share that each represents.