Hi Folks. New to the Forum. Here's the first of what will probably be a series of dumb questions.
I have an exisitng double mainline layout built 30 years ago which is undergoing complete renovation - new track & turnouts, smoothing roadbeds, readjusting grades, repairing some sagging overpasses, upgrading wiring, etc. A couple years ago I replaced the power packs with MTH DCS Commander and their 100 watt power supply, one for each track.
Since everything is essentially already in place for DC (like the control panel), I plan on running two power districts for DCC - one for each mainline. I typically run rather long trains (or two trains on one tracks). Because of the length, grades and curves I've found I get better performance using four to six powered locomotives on most trains. There will also be a double revering loop added on the inside mailine track and three or four additional sidings (there's one existing short passing track).
I guess my first "dumb" question is, should I use a single or separate (2) common (-) buss wires, one for each track (or more for each siding), or can the (-) feeders just be tied to one common buss but use a different (separate) buss for the + side of the connections of each mainline?
I don't intend to run both DC and DCC simultaneously, however I suspect that I probably could run DC on one mailine and DCC on ther mainline at the same time since all the old fashioned cab control blocks will still be in place.
ArtoSince everything is essentially already in place for DC (like the control panel),
The only way to safely operate a DC/DCC layout is to have one or the other operate at one time, not both at once. That is accomplished with a DPDT center off switch back at the beginning of your power sources to the track, or layout wiring, only one power source can be on at one time, eliminating the possiblity of a problem of messing up something. The Safest Way! Your crossovers, should of been both rails insulated at the crossovers to begin with, unless you used common rail,which I personally detest. Atlas came out with that years ago to try to simplify wiring with the products they had on the market, not the best as far as relliability goes. My opinon only.
Frank
For safety, you should never try to run both DC and DCC at the same time unless there is absolutely no connection anywhere between lines that a locomotive could inadvertently cross. Depending how how high the DC throttle is set, your DCC command station can be destroyed.
Yes, they're right. Don't do it.
You didn't say how big your layout was, but if you've already got the 2 main lines which are already electrically isolated it would be best to keep them that way. For most home layouts, you won't need a booster to add DCC power, although with the number of engines you run, you might. Having the main lines isolated will make it easier to install a booster. If not, you should consider using separate circuit breakers to break the layout into districts. This will help operationally, and will make troubleshooting easier as well.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Separate returns lines are almost a necessity due primarily to the need to diagnose shorts. Your reversing loops will require a rewiring for DCC. Several manufacturer's (MRC, Digitrax, Circuitron, etc.) make reversing modules for DCC application. Circuitron also makes a DC reversing module but you cannot run DC through a DCC reversing module. These DCC reversing modules make it impossible to run DC mode. You can run DC engines on the Digitrax stretch zero mode which assigns engine ID=zero and runs the DC engine using DCC control. This method is controversial and has the potential to damage motors...especially coreless motors. I use it all the time w/0 any problems but you cannot leave a DC engine on a powered track for any extended period of time as the motor may get too hot. You have to kill the power or remove the engine.
George T. Galyon
Olde Newburgh Model RR Club-Walden, NY
Not to complicate things, but obviously I have to choose a DCC system to use. I've read/heard all the "Ford vs. Chevy" arguments. But yesterday while speaking with a Lenz dealer he mentioned the Roco Z21.
I recently added a laptop PC to my audio system to use as a digital media center for playing high resolution audio files and now use a tablet as a remote control for the laptop/media software/music albums/tracks to play. So this Roco Z21 really piqued my curiosity since it can use a tablet as a graphic control interface instead of the hardware based handheld DCC type devices. The Z21/tablet combination apparently has many capabilities simply not available with other DCC systems.
Anyone have any experience with the Z21 or know someone who does?? Opinions?
You can wire a reverse loop through a DPDT toggle switch and it can be used for both DC and DCC operation, but your train has to stop within the loop as the toggle switch is thrown.
A DC throttle has to also be set to go in the opposite direction after the toggle switch is thrown so the train doesn't back up.
With DCC the train will continue to go forward after the toggle switch is thrown without having to change the throttle direction setting.
When I started building my layout, I thought I would build it with the option to run DC or DCC, since I had some DC engines already. But, when I installed a decoder and ran my first DCC engine back and forth along about 6 feet of track, I took the DC powerpack off the layout and put it under the table, never to run DC again. (The powerpack now runs my turntable and some LEDs.)
This may be your experience, too. DCC added a lot to running trains for me.
Similarly, once I got my first couple of sound engines, all my non-sound engines spent their days in the roundhouse until they were upgraded. It's just the way it worked out.
Our club was built in the early 1980's with common rail, fourteen blocks, one reversing loop, HO scale. When we went to DCC about seven or so years ago using a NCE 5 amp Power Pro, we tried running a block or two in DCC and a couple others in DC. One time we were gabbing and a loco crossed a block gap. Fried the booster. No one was watching the control panel. From then on, no DC operations anymore.
Do what you want.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Yes Beasley, I suspect you are very right.
To be honest I have so many locomotives its not funny. And I'm pretty sure virtually everything I've bought in the last 5-7 or more is DCC ready, and there's a lot of those. Lots of Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 that just need the board swapped out & some Broadway Limited. The truely DC only stuff hasn't been run in years. I'm probably fooling myself to believe that I'll have the time to convert any significant number of these to DCC in the near future.
Since I'm putting in all new track and turnouts it sounds like it's still a good idea to put the "original" insulated blocks in place with discrete busses for each block if for nothing else than trouble shooting and just start installing DCC chips in my newer locomotives. And that way I can also use the two MTH power supplies and split the two mainlines into separate power districts. The old control panel still in place and all I have to modify is to get rid of the single common return and run separate busses to each block.
Sound like a plan?
richg1998 One time we were gabbing and a loco crossed a block gap. Fried the booster. No one was watching the control panel. From then on, no DC operations anymore. Do what you want. Rich
One time we were gabbing and a loco crossed a block gap. Fried the booster. No one was watching the control panel. From then on, no DC operations anymore.
ArtoTo be honest I have so many locomotives its not funny. And I'm pretty sure virtually everything I've bought in the last 5-7 or more is DCC ready, and there's a lot of those. Lots of Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 that just need the board swapped out & some Broadway Limited. The truely DC only stuff hasn't been run in years. I'm probably fooling myself to believe that I'll have the time to convert any significant number of these to DCC in the near future.
Since I'm putting in all new track and turnouts it sounds like it's still a good idea to put the "original" insulated blocks in place with discrete busses for each block if for nothing else than trouble shooting
And that way I can also use the two MTH power supplies and split the two mainlines into separate power districts.
Zephyr, you're comments are well taken. I think I could drill a couple of holes in the roadbed at the crossovers where I could insert a couple of plastic dowels, kind of like concrete filled steel ballard posts we see protecting building corners and signs in tight parking lots/driveways. Of course the train would crash into these if something was accidentally switched wrong but it's better than letting the locomotive pass through and destroying who knows what else. I tend to run my trains at lower speeds. To me it looks more realistic on my layout so the dowel barriers should easily sustain the impact.
The other thing I should mention is that the MTH DCS Commanders I use (two - one for each mainline) are DCC compatible. It has selectable control mode configurations for analog DC, DCC and DCS. For the most part I always have all the control panel toggles for one mailine switched to use one DCS Commander & power supply and the other mainline control panel toggles thrown the other way to use the second DCS Commander & its power supply. Both tracks (and all blocks) are electrically isolated and there will no common rail as in the past. I'm going to rewire all the blocks discretely with their own buss & feeders. Both rails isolated between all blocks.
If something can go wrong it will.
Arto Anyone have any experience with the Z21 or know someone who does?? Opinions?
Hi!
Just some observations from a guy who has played with trains since the early 1950s............
- Often, redoing a layout is more trouble (now and later) than tearing it down and starting over. Sounds like you are well on your way so I wish you luck.
- While its possible to mix DC and DCC, I would urge you to go one way or the other. I did make the switch to DCC in 2008, and have been very happy with it.
- If you do go with DCC, go with NCE or Digitrax or even CVP. Your support from the factory and this Forum will be much more substantial, parts/supplies are much more readily available, and these systems all work great.
- It sounds like you know this, but I'll say it anyway....... make your wiring bulletproof. Put in lots of feeders, perhaps every 4 feet and on every siding, etc. This especially applies to DCC, but is a good thing for DC as well.
- Make yourself a work plan. With a sizeable layout, its easy to jump into the deep end of the pool............
- ENJOY !
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Arto ... So this Roco Z21 really piqued my curiosity since it can use a tablet as a graphic control interface instead of the hardware based handheld DCC type devices. The Z21/tablet combination apparently has many capabilities simply not available with other DCC systems. .......
... So this Roco Z21 really piqued my curiosity since it can use a tablet as a graphic control interface instead of the hardware based handheld DCC type devices. The Z21/tablet combination apparently has many capabilities simply not available with other DCC systems. .......
I know this is an older discussion, but I feel a little more research might be necessary, you are incorrect about the tablet control. First, I'm VERY budget minded and I've set up DCC very inexpensiviely, that runs on G scale, and I've also simply hooked the same system to HO and N, and at one time at the same time!
Let me tell you about my setup. First, I bought a almost new NCE Power Cab, yes the basic starter set, for very little $$. However, it is VERY expandable. The power cab comes with a panel that lets you expand, you can expand to as many as you'd like. You can also use the Power Cab as a Pro Cab on an other NCE system! Next, I bought a couple of boosters, don't limit yourself to the brand you have, no need for that, you can wire just about any booster to the other brands. I bought two slightly older 8 AMP MRC boosters, now problem wiring up with my Power Cab. Also, since I've moved a lot, and setup temp layouts (mostly G scale!, yes indoors), I've gotten good at doing this. Third, I bought a Bachmann 5 Amp booster, got REAL bargarins on the boosters, look around you can find them. The Bachmann works great on my temp layouts, is easy, fan cooled, and I don't need the 8 Amps right now or mulitple districts ATT. I mounted my NCE panel in a little plastic box.
Finally, I purchased the NCE USB panel, it plugs into the other port on my panel then plugs into the laptop via USB cable. However, the BEST part is the software is free, I use the JMRI software (see here: http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/hardware/nce/NCE.shtml )
It also has tablet suuport, there is an WiFI throttle Android app that communicates with the laptop wirelessly, and works great on any cheap Android tablet. You can also use IOS WifI throttle softwire Also, I can add other NCE throttles if I so choose and I don't need the NCE Power Pro setup. My total dollar outoput was VERY inexpensive, and I have enough power and expandability for most home needs.
My suggestion is look around A LOT, I spent a lot of time researching systems that would fit in my budget, and this system pretty much does everything and was not near as expensive as full blown systems from the major manufacturers. It has been reliable. There are wireless options for the NCE throttles too. But I just use the tablet. I also needed a firmware upgrade for my Power Cab, but it was easy to get from a reputable dealer, shipped on chip, for about $9. With an unlimited budget I do like some of the other systems as well, but I try to keep my train budget under control. Also, Ebay is your friend.
Ted
Just got a Z21 for Christmas (after asking for it for at least 3 years) and I love it. I will be either packing away my NCE Power Cab as a back up, or selling it. It's literally like going from a 1977 Texas Instruments Calculator to an iPad. Not sure why it isn't more popular here, probably the price, but since vitually everyoine owns a smartphone, it's really not much more than other wirelss systems.
I model N scale, so no "kameraloks" are available for the cab-view option, but give it a few years and that may change. I joined a Yahoo users group where worldwide users exchange info.
I know I deserted a trusted pioneer of USA DCC for bells and whistles, but my 5 year old son's eyes light up when he runs trains now. That's priceless.
That's great the video game controller is workign for you, but when we do club shows, we will often let youngsters run the trains (we even have a junior engineer certificate we give out) and even though it's a simple knob throttle with buttons (and no display at all - simple engineer throttles from Digitrax), these kids always really get into it, watching for signal indications and blowing the horn at road crossings, etc. Never saw one that wasn't excited to be given control of the train (under the watchful eye of a club member of course) and not a fancy color display with pictures in sight.
It's like I said before, it's gimicky and flashy for the sake of being flashy, it doesn;t do anythign to improve the ease of use or general usability. I DO occasionally use a touchscreen throttle on my phone, can do that with any DCC system and JMRI. No, it doesn;t have a little picture of my locos - but I still don;t get how this is an easier way to select locos than just keying in the number printed right on the side of the loco. The touch control for speed is ok, but nowhere near as fine as the encoder wheel knob on a Digitrax or NCE throttle. I can use the volume rocker as a speed control, but there's just something clunky about increment and decrement buttons - if I wanted that I would have gotten a Lenz DCC system. Its an option on Digitrax and NCE throttles, the buttons are there - but I never use them for the purpose of speed control.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hello All,
DO NOT DO IT!!!
See this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/252559.aspx
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Merry Christmas to you regarding the Z21.
Unfortunately, your positive feedback on the Z21 is about two weeks too late. I just bought a Digitrax Super Chief Xtra Duplex. My original post is 2 years old. I couldn't find much interest or feedback from this side of the pond so I went with Digitrax (for a number of reasons). Of course, I'm coming into it from the DC world so this has still opened a whole new world of possibilities for me. And as I've mentioned in some other posts, my oldest DC locos actually run smoother and quieter with Digitrax DCC than they did on DC. With concurrent support for running DC & DCC locos simultaneously (even if it's only one DC loco or multi-loco DC set on one or the other mainline), that's all I need to make the transition slowly, although I already suspect (as Digitrax points out in the manual) I'll probably make this transition much faster than planned.
jjdamnit Hello All, DO NOT DO IT!!! See this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/252559.aspx Hope this helps.
The irony in all this is my worries about running DC & DCC at the same time (as on separate but paralell mainlines) was unfounded. I wasn't aware that some (all?) modern DCC systems will support DC locos and car lights etc, at least to some extent, enough for what I want to occasionally do.
FWIW, The Elmhurst Model Railroad Club runs both DC & DCC (Digitrax) concurrently albeit via some kind of custom made circuitry and still requires operators to flip the toggle switches as the train moves through the blocks.
It's NOT unsafe if you do it RIGHT. Do not mix by block, either the whole layout is DC or the whole layout is DCC, a setup like that is completely safe.
Take a look at pearhen's thread on the P2K Loksound install, if you click his pictures link, one fo the ones that shows in the album shows his test track with a big knife switch. If the cetner goes to teh track, and the left goes to the DCC system and the right goes to a DC power pack, this is a completely safe way to have both options for one layout. There's no way the two can mix, which means no chance of damaging the DCC system, the power pack, or a loco. A decent size DPDT center off toggle can accomplish the same thing if the idea of a big knife switch on your control panel is not appealing.
Truth is though, once you start usign DCC you'll not want o switch back, unless you have some locos not worth converting but want to run them for nostalgia reasons.