cacole When wiring anything on a layout involving a turnout, regardless of brand, I always insulate both rails diverging from the frog and provide separate feeder wires beyond the frog. That has proven to be an absolute foolproof method on both a large club layout and my home layout.
When wiring anything on a layout involving a turnout, regardless of brand, I always insulate both rails diverging from the frog and provide separate feeder wires beyond the frog. That has proven to be an absolute foolproof method on both a large club layout and my home layout.
That's exactly how my 3cab control layout is wired with 45 blocks,for the past 25 years without any problem's at all, with a mix of Atlas and real Shinohara turnouts. To switch from DC to DCC, is just a matter of switching the power supplies and have 45 power districts. These conversations have been going on for years, basically just because the use of two words, ''short'' and ''open'' or lack of knowledge, of the two.
Frank
It is foolproof, but unnecessary in many cases, especially with DCC so long as the turnouts are truly "DCC Friendly". I say that because a truly DCC Friendly turnout is gapped by the manufacturer so putting in your own gaps on such turnouts is redundant.
I don't gap my turnouts except in the case of reversing sections. But I do add feeders at every end of every turnout because the turnout is gapped. So, on a typical turnout, that means three sets of feeders.
Rich
Alton Junction
Frank,
I'm sure you mean well. But why are you giving advice for things you don't have, or have never experienced? If you have a DC layout, how in the world can you give people advice on something you don't have?
It sure seems like a lot of your posts go something like this. "Well I don't have this, or that, but what you need to do is is this....".
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Michael,
With all due respect, I have been in the HO part of the hobby for the better part of 62 years, my current layout, is my sixth and final in my life time anyway and after 62 yrs if I don't know how to wire a DC/DCC layout, fix an engine, coupler ETC. I must have a mental problem. Current layout I say is 25x40, but in actual size, it is 121/2x40x121/2 and wiring for DC and DCC is the same except for the BUSS, in effect less wiring. DCC controls with the decoder control the motor functions, DC controls the track, to the motor.
There's really not that much of a difference in the wiring, solid wiring is solid wiring, DC or DCC.
Insulated frog, non-power routing turnouts, like Atlas, I do just the opposite - I put feeders on all 3 legs, no insualted joiners or gaps - seems to make them foolproof, I installed wires to power the frogs but never connected them, because even my smallest locos can creep over the turnouts. When you add power routing to the mix, insulated frog or not, I'm not sure how you can otherwise avoid a potential short in any double-ended siding without gaps. And solid frog turnouts - gaps are absolutely required at the frog end, otherwise you have an instant short regardless of how the points are lined.
Extra gaps won't hurt anything - always gap, it will always work, regardless of turnout type.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
tomcatHere's my problem , I've made an oval with a passing siding and a couple of spur lines for parking, I can switch manually the turnouts on one side of the layout but when I throw the near side points the system shuts down (nce) even though they at Insulfrog points do I still need plastic joiners on the frog? If I do why doesn't the short happen on the other turnouts as well? They are insulfrogs so what is happening
With over 800 views, there is obviously a lot of interest in this thread and in the specific issue. So, let's get back to basics.
Aside from the fact that the OP mistakenly used an Electrofrog to form part of the passing siding, the original issue seemed to be, why would a passing siding formed with a LH Peco Insulfrog and a RH Peco Insulfrog cause a short and shut down the DCC layout when one set of point rails are thrown to the divergent route while the other set of point rails remain set to the straight through route? Answer: It wouldn't short the system.
The reason that a short was created was because the other turnout was an Electrofrog turnout. Let's take a closer look at the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog and the differences between the two turnouts. Both types of turnout are power routing, and we can examine what that means. But, first, consider the difference between the two turnouts.
The Insulfrog turnout has a plastic frog, and there is no way to power it. And, the Insulfrog is self-isolating, so there is no reason to gap it because it already is gapped.
The Electrofrog, on the other hand, is a metal frog, and it is powered. The Electrofrog turnout is jumpered so that the rails need not be cut to create gaps. Instead, the jumpers are cut to create the gaps. And, gaps must be cut into the Electrofrog to avoid shorts because the frog is live.
So, the only real difference between the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog is the frog itself, powered on the Electrofrog, unpowered on the Insulfrog. Why would you want a powered frog? To avoid stalls on short wheel base locos.
Now, let's look at the power routing feature of the Insulfrog. Terminology is important here, so take a look at the illustrated turnout on this site:
http://www.dccwiki.com/Turnout
The stock rails on an Insulfrog are always powered. The closure (point) rails take their power from the stock rails. The divergent frog rail is powered by the closure (point) rail. What does all this mean? It means that one of the divergent rails, the stock rail, is always powered. But, the other divergent rail, the frog rail, is only powered if the closure (point) rails are thrown to the divergent route. For that reason, unless both turnouts are set to the divergent route, the passing siding will be unpowered unless it has its own feeders.
But, it does not mean that a short will occur if only one turnout is set to the divergent route. And, why would it? If you think about it, there is no reverse polarity, so there is nothing to short.
The same is true for the creation of a crossover formed by two LH Insulfrogs or two RH Insulfrogs. There is no need for any gaps, and the crossover will not short if only one turnout is set to the divergent route. Again, why would it? There is no reverse polarity. Of course, on a crossover, both turnouts should be set to the divergent route to avoid a derailment.
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding of the Insulfrog, not because of the unpowered frog, but because of the power routing feature. There have been other threads on this forum that mistakenly suggest that a passing siding formed with Insulfrogs is prone to shorting, but that simply is not the case.
zstripe Bagal, Look at the above reply again, with only one turnout to the passing siding thrown to diverging route and the other set to through route, it will result in a short. It would do the same thing on a single crossover, if only one turnout was set for diverging and the other straight. Frank
Bagal,
Look at the above reply again, with only one turnout to the passing siding thrown to diverging route and the other set to through route, it will result in a short. It would do the same thing on a single crossover, if only one turnout was set for diverging and the other straight.
Do you have any actual experience with Peco turnouts? Or are you thinking about other makes of power routing turnouts which may act as you explain?
Peco Insulfrog turnouts are "switched" so that only the track for which the blades are set is electrically alive. However they do not short out as you claim.
Bagal
Peco insul. turnouts are power routing, so if on a double ended siding,if you only throw one turnout,it will, on a single siding no and I do have experience with Peco turnouts. I just don't prefer them.
Edit: If I recall correctly, one of the OP's turnouts was a Electro frog and that was the problem to begin with.
zstripe Bagal, Peco insul. turnouts are power routing, so if on a double ended siding,if you only throw one turnout,it will, on a single siding no and I do have experience with Peco turnouts. I just don't prefer them.
Frank, why do you persist with this misinformation. That is simply not correct.
If you throw one Peco Insulfrog to the divergent route on a double ended siding, while the Peco Insulfrog on the other end of the double ended siding remains pointed at the straight through route, there will not be a short.
Jack W.
Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that. Just sitting there - shouldn;t short out. This is different than other power routing turnouts which set both rails fromt he frog tot he same polarity based on point position, like Electrofrogs.
Still comes down to, gaps will always work, even if in some cases they aren't needed.
rrinker Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that.
Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that.
At the very outset of this thread, when I first replied to the OP, I included a link to a web site that illustrates this short at the end of the frog that Randy is referring to. I am including it again so others can visualize the location of the short in that situation.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/fixing-short-in-peco-insulfrog.html
There is some misinformation on this thread. I have around 40 Peco Insulfrog turnouts(and only Peco insulfrogs) both code 100 and 83 on my DCC layout setup in various configurations with no reverse loops. I do have neither any gaps cut nor any insulated rail joiners. I have multiple power feeders on all sides of the turnouts and not one short no matter which direction the turnouts are thrown. With the insulfrog turnouts no insulated rail joiners are needed unless there is a reverse loop or power districts included.
The downside of gapping the rails downstream of the frog is that you would rely on the points contact with the main rail of the turnout to route power. I opted to file the frog to widen the gap where I had shorts. A bit of a pain but in my eyes worthed.
I pulled out a balky double crossover today and replaced it with a single crossover.
Since I can no longer find Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts, I made the single crossover with a pair of Peco RH #6 Insulfrog turnouts. As most of us already knew, and contrary to what a few had asserted, there were no shorts and I did not gap any rails. Even with one turnout thrown to the divergent route with the other turnout pointed straight through, there were no shorts.
Just to cover all bases, I initially created a passing siding with the two new Peco Insulfrog turnouts. No gaps, no shorts, same results as the crossover under the same conditions.
Case closed !
Insulfrog points DO NOT power rout. The frog is dead which means the closed rout is isolated ( no power) but not power routed.
Electrofrog points means the frog is always alive. When point is changed the power is routed & the polarity is changed at the frog and isolted rail joiners must be used on both frog rails.
As has been suggested, I always isolate the frog rails on all points no matter their religion.
Cheers
Iansa