Bob Sandusky Gentlemen: I would like to thank all who have contributed as the conversation has been helpful to me no matter what side you come down on. The salient points I have gotten so far are: 1) What features does a user want? What does DCC give you that DC doesn't? Is that a reason to make the jump? 2) What does one DCC system give you that another one may not (say computer software limitations as to programming decoders)? 3) Cost of expandability and how big do you actually need to (or plan to grow) grow? 4) Human to technology interface, how easy (comfortable) for you to use the system you choose? All excellent points and information. Now where on-line can I find a fairly recent feature comparison list? Thanks again. I expect I'll be making a decision in the next couple of month's as I'm working on a number of different aspects to the total project (such as how do I modify the 4x8 to attach modules and what modules do I want to build for attachment, etc, etc). Thaks for all that has been posted and those ideas yet to be posted.
Gentlemen:
I would like to thank all who have contributed as the conversation has been helpful to me no matter what side you come down on.
The salient points I have gotten so far are:
1) What features does a user want? What does DCC give you that DC doesn't? Is that a reason to make the jump?
2) What does one DCC system give you that another one may not (say computer software limitations as to programming decoders)?
3) Cost of expandability and how big do you actually need to (or plan to grow) grow?
4) Human to technology interface, how easy (comfortable) for you to use the system you choose?
All excellent points and information.
Now where on-line can I find a fairly recent feature comparison list?
Thanks again. I expect I'll be making a decision in the next couple of month's as I'm working on a number of different aspects to the total project (such as how do I modify the 4x8 to attach modules and what modules do I want to build for attachment, etc, etc).
Thaks for all that has been posted and those ideas yet to be posted.
You can try this link, however I don't know how up to date it is: http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm
Jack W.
It's fairly up to date, at least concerning the systems listed. But there are a few mistakes, atleast with the Digitrax listings, and I would assume witht he others. Plus there are new systems from other manufacturers not listed there.
Also the list of features is pretty meaningless without an explanation of what they are. I know a few months (might have been over a year now) ago in MR the "DCC Dealer's Association" (started by Tony - see a pattern here?) had a comparison chart that seemed to be somewhat updated from the one ont he web site, although still with some errors and, again, no explanation of what those features are. Without any explanation you would tend to interpret a "no" as bad and that is definitely not the case in that chart.
If there are any clubs or other modelers int he area that use DCC, that would eb another way to get aquainted with various systems. Or a LHS that sells more than one brand - just be wary of they are a dealer for one and just get the others drom Walthers they may try to steer you on price, the ones they buy direct as dealers they can offer a better price on. Depending on which ones they offer the better price on, this might be a good thing, but their opinion into which one is better may be swayed by this as well. Or as a dealer of one they may have extra knowledge of that system and not know much about the others they happen to carry which can lead to 'forgetting' about fetures or simply not understanding the operation of the others.
All of the major manufacturers have their manuals online. Read those. The manuals only talk about the specific system, there never are comments about other systems in them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Once again thank you for the help.
In thinking about my vision of how the layout will eventually look and operate I am leaning toward a lower end system as I really don't envision ever having more than 4 people operating the layout at any given point (and certainly not until it is significantly larger than it is now).
I've knocked MRC out of contention because their products will not run analog units. If I have to convert all 55 powered units to use them then I'm not converting, the added features just aren't worth the added cost, I'll stick with old fashion DC thank you.
My concern with the more basic systems is that they seem to be low powered (around 2 amps) which considering I have a lot of older units seems like insufficient power to run more than 1 or 2 locos at the same time. Is this a correct assessment on my part?
If the assessment is correct, I think the solution would be to wire additional power districts with their own power supply and booster. Is this a viable solution?
Also I'm a little leery on the actual cross-compatibility of the decoders (having been in computers before they were truly 'compatible'). Are they truly interchangeable or are there certain decoders that won't work with other manufacture's systems. One of the reasons I ask is that I see advertisements for specific manufacturer's engines as opposed to a 'universal' sort of decoder. I have engines from a wide range of manufacturers over a long time period and I'd really like to be able to avoid settling on a decoder product (I'd like to standardize) that won't work with most (if not all) of my engines.
Also I see that some people claim you can use your old DC power supplies of your new DCC system and some people dispute that. I have some very fine older (read expensive for their time) power packs that if I can use I'd like to so feel free to weigh in on the 'you-can-you-can't' debate.
Once again thanks in advance for you input.
Bob Sandusky
Bob
On my Digitrax Zephyr controlled layout I run decoders from NCE, Digitrax, MRC, TCS (my favorite ones) Soundtraxx, Loksound, QSI and Lenz. Far from standardizing I happily choose the decoder that suits me best for a particular application. I have no issues what so ever running any of these decoders.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I can only speak to the system that I own, the Digitrax Super Chief, but the Tony's comparison chart is obsolete. The Chief has 29 functions, duplex radio, and is available in either 5 or 8 amps.
The chart was last updated 5 years ago.
Bob:
I have never encountered a compatibility issue with any decoder.
You might be surprised how many engines 2.5 amps will run at the same time.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
If a starter system is what you think you should use, go for it. As for using both DC and DCC, you can definitely do it and very easily. Just get your favorite DC controller and DCC controller and wire them to a Double pole double throw switch. If the switch is one direction the DC pack in on-line. If the switch is the other way, well you guessed it, the DCC system in on the track.
Springfield PA
If you really want to zero stretch an analog loco then it has to be Lenz or Digitrax. You can only run one analog loco at a time. Running zero stretch is not very easy on the motors and it does scramble some older Soundtraxx decoders. I recommend that you should either stay DC analog or weed out your older locos that you will not convert but still want to run. Installing a double pole double throw switch to switch between DC and DCC is potentially dangerous. All you need to do is not remove one DC loco and flip to DCC and burn the motor up in the analog loco. Another is forgetting to disable DC in CV29 of a decoder-ed loco and have it take off on you.
If your happy with DC operations and reluctant to convert your most used locos then by all means stay with it.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Well I'm kinda biased, the whole reason I got back into MR after a 35 year hiatus was becasue I discovered you could program the engines to match each other, quite well - imagine helpers!
Besides with all the SP and D&RGW freights I saw growing up with their long chains of SD-40T-2 and SD-45s hauling up grades and boring through tunnels (I even got hauled out of a SP tunnel on a tunnel motor - but that's another story), I was predisposed to replicationg that on a layout.
And I'm on my way. So far, on my test layout I've had seven 6 axle diesels in an reasonable consist. Still more programming to be done though (Decoder Pro is great).
So for me, DCC it is. And just so you know, I'm a software developer so the programming thing I relish. For some it may be a big downer.
Eric
I'm kinda likin this stuff
Bob SanduskyMy concern with the more basic systems is that they seem to be low powered (around 2 amps) which considering I have a lot of older units seems like insufficient power to run more than 1 or 2 locos at the same time. Is this a correct assessment on my part?If the assessment is correct, I think the solution would be to wire additional power districts with their own power supply and booster. Is this a viable solution?
Yes, that is a viable conclusion. Adding power districts is relatively simple if the layout's wiring is designed from the beginning with this in mind. Multiple power districts is one of the places where converting a blocked DC layout to DCC can actually make the job simpler.
Bob SanduskyAlso I'm a little leery on the actual cross-compatibility of the decoders (having been in computers before they were truly 'compatible'). Are they truly interchangeable or are there certain decoders that won't work with other manufacture's systems. One of the reasons I ask is that I see advertisements for specific manufacturer's engines as opposed to a 'universal' sort of decoder. I have engines from a wide range of manufacturers over a long time period and I'd really like to be able to avoid settling on a decoder product (I'd like to standardize) that won't work with most (if not all) of my engines.
I'm the DCC guy for a 45+ member NTRAK club. Have been playing with DCC since 1996. I've never had trouble running a decoder on a layout that wasn't either a user programming error or a mechanical problem. DCC compatibility at the track could be compared to plugging in the latest electrical appliance in your home. (If the plug fits the wall outlet it will most likely work.)
Looking over the Digitrax site, you will find dozens of decoders, each intended to fit a certain model loco. Internally may are the same. Look at the last digit in their part number. Every model decoder with that same last digit (currently 5) will have the same basic firmware.Each of their model lines includes a universal wired decoder with the same firmware. I use wired decoders as often as possible (they're cheaper). Circuit board replacements only when I'm in a hurry or fitting a universal decoder would require extreme frame adjustments to get it in.
Bob SanduskyAlso I see that some people claim you can use your old DC power supplies of your new DCC system and some people dispute that. I have some very fine older (read expensive for their time) power packs that if I can use I'd like to so feel free to weigh in on the 'you-can-you-can't' debate.
You can use your old power supply if it meets the requirements of the DCC system. Most manufacturers will give you a range of voltage and a minimum current output for the power supply. If your supply can meet (exceeding just a little is better) then by all means save yourself some money by using the old supply. If it can't meet the requirements, using it could cause damage to the power supply and/or your locomotives and rolling stock. You see, all DCC boosters have over-current protection (circuit breakers) built in. If the booster will shut down when say a 5 amp current is exceeded, it may not ever shut down if your power supply can only put out 3 amps. 3 amps shorted at the track will most definitely weld wheels and melt plastic. The power supply will also be trying to supply more than its rating and will at least run hotter.
As far as choice of system, I'd go for one that can be easily and most definitely added to in the future.Your future need fro up to 4 operators might work better if a better than entry level set were purchased. Digitrax Zephyr will let you run up to ten trains but has only one throttle built in. If future plans will require more throttles and more amperage, the best investment might be a larger system that includes a walk around throttle and larger booster. That would be your choice.
Martin Myers