Hi CR fan
Somewhere in my dusty memory I recall that the reason the camelback cab was moved ahead of the firebox was because of the grate area needed for Anthracite coal the cab just wouldn't fit over the firebox so they bumped it forward.
I also recall seeing a photo where a broken main rod had completely wiped the side of the cab off... and the engineer with it!
Ed
The Reading, Lehigh Valley, CNJ and several other roads used camelbacks in all types of service including passenger.
The reason for the wide firebox was so the anthracite coal used by these railroads would burn more efficiently. Anthracite is a very hard coal compared to the bituminous coal used by most roads and required more air and a thinner layer of coal on the grates to burn properly.
The disadvantage was that they were so wide the cabs had to be located over the boiler exposing the fireman to all the elements and causing a communications problem between him and the engineer. This also proved to be a very hot and dangerous location for the engineer as someone stated in another post.
I've seen photos of 2-8-8-2 camels before but I don't know if that was the largest wheel arrangement made.
The B&O RR Museum in Baltimore has a beautiful CNJ 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 camelback on display. There is a Reading A-5 (?) 0-4-0 camel at Strasburg. I believe these are the last 2 examples in the USA.
Roger
I know there were articulated Mother Hubbards, but the longest single wheelbase I've seen anything about is the 2-10-0 Mother Hubbard used for pusher service.
Mother Hubbards and Camelbacks are two names that are used to describe these loco's. To many, the terms are interchangable. There is also the Winans Camel. The main spotting difference is the position of the cab. Many would say that a Mother Hubbard has the cab position astride the boiler while a Winans Camel has the cab, oftentimes open, on top of the boiler. Each have advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage to being atop the boiler is that at slow speeds you can see REALLY good. The disadvantage is that once you speed up you can have a lot of smoke in your face. Either way, your feet get cooked! The biggest advantage to the astride the boiler position is a great view at speed. The disadvantage is if a rod comes loose and "wipes the clock" so to speak.
Here's a couple of pics to show what I'm talking about.
This is a Mother Hubbard or Camelback.......
This is a Winans Camel..............
I suspect the largest Camelback was the Erie 0-8-8-0. There are more images on this link
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie2600.jpg
Dave Nelson
The terms Camel and Camelback seem to be frequently confused and may have changed meaning over time. The cab on top was originally called the Camel and the cab astride the midpoint of the boiler called the Camelback.
This page at the B&O museum has both http://www.toytrains1.com/museum-bo.htm
Enjoy
Paul
IRON,
I didn't know that. Maybe thats where the confusion comes from, huh?
!
Camelbacks and Mother Hubbards, a very interesting class of locomotives! Although we generally use the two terms interchangeably, there definitely needs to be some clarification, as these two types are not at all the same thing.
The first of the two to come into existence is the Camelback. The type came into being when the B&O drew up plans for a locomotive that would handle tough grades. The first models were 0-8-0s with a wide, deep firebox. The engine ran on 8 very small wheels centered under the middle of the frame. The wide firebox prevented mounting the cab at the rear, but the short wheels allowed it to be placed above the boiler top. The engines had one large steam collecting dome that ran up through the middle of the cab, allowing the safety valves to be positioned outside of the cab. That single dome, coupled with the high position of the cab, led many engineer's to remark that running one of them was "like sitting on a camels back", and the name stuck.
Camelback locomotives had a firebox that had a rearward sloping roof and they extended all the way from the rear coupler to way under the cab. The extreme length of these fireboxes required "Firehatches" to be installed in the roof of the firebox to allow coal to be fed into the forward portions of the firebox. In effect, a camelback had the equivalent of 2 or 3 firedoors, spaced up to 12 feet apart.
The most notable Camelback was the 12 coupled ridged framed "Philadelphia" build for the Philadelphia and Reading Railroad. The locomotive was particularly notable because it had no tender. It was used on a short but very steep section of track, and specifically built to serve as a booster for the grade. As there were servicing facilities at each end of the grade, the locomotive would be stoked and watered at each end of it's designated run, which was short enough that it could make the run before burning all the coal in the firebox. Only a small emergency tank of coal and water was kept in the cab, which was not normally used on the run.
Believe it or not, we have the French to thank for the more modern Mother Hubbard type. A mountainous railroad in France, hearing of the success of B&O's Camelbacks, asked for some of their own. The encountered a problem with the French loading gauge however, in the form of the low clearance tunnels. As a response to this problem, the center sections of the boiler and firebox were narrowed, and the cab was shortened, then placed astride the boiler instead of on top of it. Without the crew access from above, the firehatches could not be employed, and the firebox had to be shortened to accommodate the singe firedoor at the rear.
Later, this design was fitted with the Wooten type firebox, which could burn the hard anthracite coal which burned almost like paper, according to some firemen. The coal was so light that the draft of normal fireboxes would sweep the coal right of the grates before it even ignited. The wide Wooten firebox lowered the speed of the air flowing through the grates (Remember Bernoulli's principal?) so it would not blow the coal right out the stack.
Matthew ImbrognoMechanical Vollenteer, Arizona Railway Museumwww.azrymuseum.org
The largest Camelbacks ever built.
Erie's trio of 0-8-8-0 pushers:
Largest locomotives ever built when they rolled out of the Alco shops in 1907. All three were later rebuilt by Baldwin with traditional "rear cabs" and converted to 2-8-8-2's Erie L1 class, also called "Angus class" Scot
Mother hubbard type engines were built first. Winans were a populat make. They had a conventional firebox and the cab was a large "pavillion" on top of the boiler in the middle of the engine. The largest of these designs were 0-12-0's. The Reading had some as pushers on the West Falls grade into Phillie.
A Reading master mechanic named Wooten devised a wide firebox to burn anthracite and anthracite culm. It required a very wide firebox because the anthracite needed a very thin bed of coals to burn best. By this time the "mother hubbard" style engines had fallen out of favor and end cabs were the standard. The original Wooten Firebox engines had end cabs, they were just perched on top of the firebox.
The Reading sent a engine and a crew to Italy to demonstrate the Wooten firebox. The Italian clearances were so tight that the engine couldn't fit through the tunnels due to being too tall. The Reading crew moved the cab and linkages (this is in the days when an engineer was an called an engineer for a reason) astride the boiler to lower the overall height of the engine so it would fit through the Italian tunnels. The Reading trips were successful demonstration, but unsuccessful in no locomotives were sold. So the first true "camelback" wasn't French, it was an American engine operting on Italian rails.
The engine and crew returned home and the Reading saw that it was an easy way to increase the size of the engine without making the engine taller, and so the Camelback became the cab style of choice for Wooten firebox engines. Eventually they increased the clearances enough and changed the designs to make end cab Wooten firebox engines practical.
If you want more details on the camelback history, there is a 2 volume histroy of the Reading, a coal age empire that has extensive documentation.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Nope, it's not a camelback. It's Winans Camel, no back. Camelbacks have Wootten fireboxes, which are very wide and sit on top of the frame rather than between the framerails like it's contemporaries' design.
They are fired with a thin layer of coal unlike their contemporaries' which have deep fireboxes which are fired with a thick layer of coal.
Winans camels do not. They have standard fireboxes between the framerails.
pcarrell wrote:There is a difference between a Mother Hubbard and a Camelback in many peoples minds. To many, the terms are interchangable, but to those who are into early RRing there is a big difference. The main spotting difference is the position of the cab. Many would say that a Mother Hubbard has the cab position astride the boiler while a Camelback has the cab, oftentimes open, on top of the boiler. This is a Camelback..............
This is a Camelback..............
Behold the awesome power of the edit post button.
crfan wrote:Meant to say Erie in the last post, not the LV. sorry for the error, confusion.
Newyorkcentralfan wrote: Nope, it's not a camelback. It's Winans Camel, no back. Camelbacks have Wootten fireboxes, which are very wide and sit on top of the frame rather than between the framerails like it's contemporaries' design. They are fired with a thin layer of coal unlike their contemporaries' which have deep fireboxes which are fired with a thick layer of coal. Winans camels do not. They have standard fireboxes between the framerails. pcarrell wrote:There is a difference between a Mother Hubbard and a Camelback in many peoples minds. To many, the terms are interchangable, but to those who are into early RRing there is a big difference. The main spotting difference is the position of the cab. Many would say that a Mother Hubbard has the cab position astride the boiler while a Camelback has the cab, oftentimes open, on top of the boiler. This is a Camelback..............
I agree..
this:
Is a Winans Camel. period. it is not a "Camelback" OR a "Mother Hubbard"
as to "Camelback" Vs. "Mother Hubbard" - IMO they are interchangable terms describing any loco with the cab on the boiler, *except* for the Winans Camel. I dont believe there is any clear difference to call one type Camelback and a different type Mother Hubbard.
Camelback AND/OR Mother Hubbard:
Winans Camel - not a Camelback or a Mother Hubbard:
Scot
crfan wrote: i purchased a Mantua 2-8-2 steam engine listed as a camel back and thought it was such a wonderful design, also because i just thought it was cool(my wife and kids thought it was neat). the tender is marked "Reading" but I don't know if they had any such locomotives of this wheel arrangement.
I dont believe the Reading had any 2-8-2 camelbacks. (although I could be wrong)
The Mantua engine is based on a Lehigh Valley 2-8-2 camelback. As is the case with all model railroad locomotives, the manufacturers paint them up for any roadname that will sell, regardless of whether the prototype line ever actually had that type of locomotive.
scottychaos wrote: crfan wrote: i purchased a Mantua 2-8-2 steam engine listed as a camel back and thought it was such a wonderful design, also because i just thought it was cool(my wife and kids thought it was neat). the tender is marked "Reading" but I don't know if they had any such locomotives of this wheel arrangement. I dont believe the Reading had any 2-8-2 camelbacks. (although I could be wrong) Scot
According to George Drury's Guide To North American Steam Locomotives, Reading had 57 2-8-2 Mikados classed M-1sa, none of them camelbacks. I knew this book would come in handy.
ndbprr wrote:Camelbacks were outlawed by the ICC. The engineer had absolutely no chance in the event of a boiler explosion and the fireman was very vulnerable to falling off on that back deck plus communication was next to impossible.
Yet the CNJ operated 4-4-2 and 4-6-0 camelbacks right up to their last days before final dieselization.
IIRC, the ICC outlawed camelbacks for NEW CONSTRUCTION (date??) but did not mandate withdrawing existing camelbacks from service. Doing so would have been impractical - significant percentages of the LV, D&H, CNJ and Reading locomotive rosters would have been affected (and the ICC wasn't about to pay for replacements!)
Chuck (who would love to model camelbacks - which did not exist in Central Japan in September, 1964)
crfan wrote:my original question came about because i purchased a Mantua 2-8-2 steam engine listed as a camel back and thought it was such a wonderful design, also because i just thought it was cool(my wife and kids thought it was neat). The model is probably from the 70's or 80's because of the box design and color scheme, ....
Actually its more an early 1900's engine, pre-WW1, post 1905.
They are nice engines though.
Mantua also made a camelback Pacific, which is a LV model, the RDG never built any camelback Pacifics. Mantua used the camelback boiler on a 4-4-2 underframe and the Reading did have camelbacK Atlantics although the boiler is a bit big.
dehusman wrote: crfan wrote:my original question came about because i purchased a Mantua 2-8-2 steam engine listed as a camel back and thought it was such a wonderful design, also because i just thought it was cool(my wife and kids thought it was neat). The model is probably from the 70's or 80's because of the box design and color scheme, ....Actually its more an early 1900's engine, pre-WW1, post 1905.They are nice engines though.Dave H.
He meant the model itself is from the 1970's or 1980's!