Rick,I knew there was at least one and possible 10 Tuscan K4s...As was mention these K4s was used to pull the "Red Arrow"...Knowing the PRR these were probably short lived publicity locomotives and I suspect very few public photos exist of these locomotives....There is a lot to be learned about the so called "Standard railroad of the world" and its little known trends and publicity stunts..
Larry
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In the Stauffer/Pennypacker Book The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 on Page 118 the authors state that there were 10 K4s in Tuscan Red livery in the 30's. The know numbers were 2761, 5409, and 5436.
Rick
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Last night I read trough Stauffers section on the K4 in Pennsy Power. There is no mention of red K4s in the technical info and the only reference I could fine was one photo caption stating several were painted red in the 1930s. In the interest of accuracy there is still no evidence of red K4 engines.
After another discussion on this subject a while ago on this forum, I asked on the PRR Modelers Group this same question. Bruce Smith from the PRRHTS replied that yes at least one K4 was painted in Tuscan Red in the 1930's for a short time. It also had a unique lettering format that no current decals would suffice for.
ndbprr Stauffer has numerous errors in Pennsy Power The only known reference to a tuscan K4 is in a railfans diary from the 1930s. There is no proof of one let alone ten. And therefore it is not a fact but speculation.
Stauffer has numerous errors in Pennsy Power The only known reference to a tuscan K4 is in a railfans diary from the 1930s. There is no proof of one let alone ten. And therefore it is not a fact but speculation.
Seems to me you won't listen to facts so I am finish..PRR had at least 1 K4 painted in tuscan red and that's a cold hard fact as Mr.Stauffer stated in Pennsy Power.
I also know its a fact beyond any doubt.
ndbprr amazing! No one in the PRRT&HS .knows that. What is your source. Otherwise it remains an opinion.and unprovable.
amazing! No one in the PRRT&HS .knows that. What is your source. Otherwise it remains an opinion.and unprovable.
Its fact..That's why I don't put much stock in historical societies as they are not the end all authority..
Check Staufer's "Pennsy Power" for details.
ndbprrThere is no proof I know of that indicates the existance of a Tuscan K4 nor has there ever been confirmation in the Keystone the publication of the historical society. There has been a great deal of rumor and I know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy who saw it type talk. Remember that all pictures of the era were black and white so photographic evidence is going to be hard to prove a color. What is going to happen to the MTH credibility of , "our engines are more accurate" sales pitch? As a PRR modeler with five K4's I won;t be getting that one until somebody shows me something definitive like PRR shop documentation for its painting.
When it comes to the PRR never say never because it may bite you later.
The PRR had 10 Tuscan K4 that was used on the Red Arrow.
I know very little about the Pennsy, but a quick google search turned up THIS. Wonder from whence came their proto info?
Wayne
I know a lot about the PRR and their engines and I know they made at least one tuscan red k4. The most that I heard they made was 4.
Here is one of the stories I have heard about the the tuscan k4:
· The PRR made the K4 for the Inauguration of The Red Arrow, a passenger train going from New York to Detroit, (part of the PRR Blue Ribbon Fleet). One of the reasons making only one tuscan k4 does not make sense would be that every so often they would switch engines on their way to their destination (in this case Detroit) and what would be the sense of running a train with a tuscan k4 for only 1/4 or 1/2 of a trip.
I also heard that the Tuscan K4 only lasted for about a year.
arod1361
dknelson I am hardly an expert but back when the PPR was my chosen prototype I assembled a decent collection of reference materials. I have never seen a Tuscan Red K4, either in photos or in calendar paintings. I looked through my reference materials and could find nothing that mentions even a rumor. However in Harry Albrecht's self published book "Pennsylvania Railroad K-4s," there is a B&W photo of a streamlined K-4 3678 that was in service on the Jeffersonian between NY, Philly and St Louis. The photo SEEMS to suggest that the casing covering the side running boards was a different color or shade than the boiler itself. Obviously this is merely suggestive and proves nothing. The only other "evidence" -- and it is not evidence of a Tuscan Red K-4 -- is that given that this was the self-styled Standard Railroad of the World there were an amazing number of variations within the class, including some one of a kind modifications that perhaps were short lived -- air horns along the stack, unusual steam domes, different tenders and trailing trucks and stacks, varying degrees of streamlining etc. I DO have recollections of seeing a red Pacific, but I no longer recall if it was a prototype (the Alton?) or something on John Allen's HO scale Gorre & Daphetid! Dave Nelson
I am hardly an expert but back when the PPR was my chosen prototype I assembled a decent collection of reference materials. I have never seen a Tuscan Red K4, either in photos or in calendar paintings. I looked through my reference materials and could find nothing that mentions even a rumor. However in Harry Albrecht's self published book "Pennsylvania Railroad K-4s," there is a B&W photo of a streamlined K-4 3678 that was in service on the Jeffersonian between NY, Philly and St Louis. The photo SEEMS to suggest that the casing covering the side running boards was a different color or shade than the boiler itself. Obviously this is merely suggestive and proves nothing. The only other "evidence" -- and it is not evidence of a Tuscan Red K-4 -- is that given that this was the self-styled Standard Railroad of the World there were an amazing number of variations within the class, including some one of a kind modifications that perhaps were short lived -- air horns along the stack, unusual steam domes, different tenders and trailing trucks and stacks, varying degrees of streamlining etc.
I DO have recollections of seeing a red Pacific, but I no longer recall if it was a prototype (the Alton?) or something on John Allen's HO scale Gorre & Daphetid!
Dave Nelson
The Alton had a red jacketed pacific and pictures exist of it.
I lived near Effingham Illinois and have actual pictures in my collection of two different streamlined K4's at the coaling tower west of town, and the streamlined K4's were not in red.
twhite wrote: Doc--I know that Pennsy 'streamlined' several of their K-4's. Was perhaps one of the streamlined ones painted Tuscan? I've only seen photos of them in black and white, but I've always been curious as to what color the Pennsy painted them. Tom
Doc--I know that Pennsy 'streamlined' several of their K-4's. Was perhaps one of the streamlined ones painted Tuscan? I've only seen photos of them in black and white, but I've always been curious as to what color the Pennsy painted them.
Tom
I have pictures of two of them in Effingham Illinois, my train watching spot. They were all dark Brunswick Green, which looked black after a few trips on the road.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I saw the B&W photo a few years ago. There was information stating that the engine was painted Tuscan to match the Tuscan passenger cars that it pulled. After a short period of time it was painted back to the original color of DGLE. Recently I saw a color photo of the same engine but since I read a previous article about it I skipped passed it. I don't know whether I saw it one of the many books and magazines I get each month or if it was on the web. It was a right sided view of the engine and tender not the one mentioned on the PRRH&TS discussion link.
I am not familiar with the painting mentioned in the previous email.
Doc
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
topcopdoc wrote: The K-4 in question according to PRR historian Frederick Westing is #5409. He wrote about it in an article in Trains magazine. I will continue to search for the photos. I saw one in B&W and one in color. Doc
The K-4 in question according to PRR historian Frederick Westing is #5409. He wrote about it in an article in Trains magazine. I will continue to search for the photos. I saw one in B&W and one in color.
I suspect what you saw was Reid's painting of one in Tuscan done for the article. The Altoona museum and the historical society have a love hate relationship with the museum taking numerous stances regarding equipment that are just plain wrong. I stand by my statement that no color picture exists and it is speculation until proven. Believe me when I say many of us would love to find proof that the engine was indeed painted that way.
As for the cab number, you are correct, it is numbered 5409. I really didn't think it would have been "faked" but was more inclined to believe it was "probable" as previously mentioned.
I really believe that the prototype was probably painted that way with the intention of painting more and using them strictly for the Broadway Limited, etc.., but much like the Dreyfuss streamlined Hudson's, cost became reality and the dreams drifted away in the clouds.
If you do find any color pictures, please let me know where I can find one.
Thanks-Joe
Thanks to all who have answered so far. I too have never seen anything of the staem era in Tuscan. Unfortunately, I'm primarily a NYC and D&H person, so I figured I'd be bound to find someone who would know the PRR stuff, especially here! I will say this, my friend sold me one of the new MTH K4s at a very reduced rate, so I bought it. It's the Brunswick one, and I was able to find all the info I needed on it, so I know it's prototypical. The problem lies in the fact that, (as someone mentioned), all the photos I can find are B&W, so they all look the same. I've tried PRR websites, Fallen Flags.com, etc... Right now I'm waiting for a response from the PRR Historical Society.
I honestly think that MTH just painted a few in the Tuscan for no particular reason except PRR did use that color. Considering the K4 in question was sent in a special box as a "Dealer Appreciation" sort of thing. Too me, that's akin to painting a streamlined Hudson in black and silver, "just because" it was one, (of many) schemes the NYC used. I don't condone it, but if it's what you like, so be it. What really strikes me odd, is I sent MTH an email asking where they got their info for the K4, and as of this date, still haven't gotten a response. It's been 2 weeks. Odd, no?
Thanks again, and keep sending me the info. As a former Investigator, I won't quit until I know.
I have a picture of the only Tuscan K-4 and some info on it. I will try to find it and pass it on.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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