Why do they call them "Engineers?"

[james saunders]

Pacific National calls them Locomotive operators

[rkbufkin]

What does AMTRAK call them. Are they engineers or motormen running the Acelas>

[Anonymous]

Some more information about the use of Engineer on USA Railroads::
Much like any othe names we have used or changed over the years, the work engineer goes back to the time of the early 1800's when the term was given to show the authority and responiblity of the man in charge. Just because we use the name differently today does not change the way it was used in the past. We are now using terms and names that were not even thought of thirty years ago.


A Locomotive Engineer or train driver is a person who operates a railroad locomotive and train. The Engineer is the person in charge of and responsible for the locomotive(s) of a railroad train. They are also in charge of the mechanical operation of the train and all train handling. They share with the Conductor, whom is in charge of the train, responsibility for the safe operation of the train and application of the railway companys' rules and procedures. The Engineer controls the speed of the train and the handling of the cars and equipment. On many railroads, the career progression is one that starts as an Asst. Conductor (Brakeman), Conductor and finally, Engineer. In the United States the Engineer is required by the federal government to be certified, & re-certified every 2-3 years. A Locomotive Engineer who wishes to become an Engineers' supervisor would progress to the position of Road Foreman of Engines.

[edit]
Duties
Responsible for preparing equipment for service, checking paperwork & vital seals, controlling acceleration, braking & handling of the train underway, following direction of the Conductor. Has memorized physical characteristics of the railroad, including passenger stations and all speeds. Along with the conductor, the engineer monitors time to not fall behind schedule, nor leave stations early. Often requires running at reduced speed when following other trains, approaching route diversions, or regulating time over road to avoid arriving too early, when builtin "recovery time" in schedule is not needed. Assumes duties of conductor if incapacitated or removed.

[vsmith]

Macchinista! Macchinnn ---ista!

That has a nice sound to it!

Lokomotivführer? not sure about that one, Hmmm, sounds like a Sienfeld episode...

"No trains for YOU!"

[rayw46]

I've seen this thread for about two weeks now, but haven't opened it. I did so today to see if anyone has given the obvious answer; because they're near the engine. Hey, it's raining where I am and I'm feeling a little goofty.

[wjstix]

Of course "driver" is just a left-over term from the days of driving animals, it predates machinery like trains, cars, etc.

[Anonymous]

In accident investigation reports from 1911 through the 1960's, the ICC insisted on using the neologism "engineman" instead of "engineer", although the latter term was otherwise in universal use. The commission reserved the title of engineer for its professional 'experts' and consultants with academic credentials. In a subsequent reversal of policy, investigation reports embraced "engineer" in place of "engineman" for operators of locomotives in order to accommodate feminist sensitivities. At the same time and for the same reason, reports began to refer to motormen as "operators", a title historically reserved for those who copied and passed up train orders.

[tomikawaTT]

Bangert1

If I were to take your shout literally, I could call myself a "Motor Vehicle Engineer." After all, I do have a license!

Back about half a century ago, there was a great to-do about the relative number of engineers being licensed in the (former) Soviet Union versus the same statistic for the United States. Then someone noticed that a significant number were "sanitary engineers." A quick check of the training and qualifications involved proved that they would have been called "plumbers" in the English-speaking world.

Another point to ponder - the US Navy rating who has hands-on control of the ship's main engines (and is expected to perform at-sea repairs on same) is called a Machinist's Mate. (Does that make the EOW a machinist?) Navy-ese for the rating who civilians would call a machinist is 'metalsmith.'

Most of the credentialed engineers in the Corps of Engineers are DOD civilians. The grunts who do the work are not called engineers, any more than the file clerks in the university school of (fill in the blank) engineering are called engineers.

Fun, isn't it

Chuck

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Simply because you do NOT "drive" a train.

I believe they do call them drivers in some places overseas, but we don't use that name here.

One of the several meanings of the word Engineer is:: one who run an engine or an apparatus

Sorry !

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smattei

in french: mécanicien : that is something like 'the one that works with an engine...'

in german. Lokomotivführer (yes Führer like in Hitler...): that means 'leader of the engine'.

in italian: macchinista (the one that works with an engine, it can also bee the engine of a ship).

Sebastiano

Well it looks like only the US and Canada have a problem. In Australia and most of the English speaking world they are drivers. Here in Indonesia they are known as "masinis", which very possibly means Dutch use a similar term as Sebastiano explained for French and Italian in his post.

For the people who are troubled by the use of "engineer" what about army engineers? The ones who build bridges or demoli***hings, not the mechanical and electrical wallahs. Bet there would not be too many degrees in an engineer battalion.

[jfallon]

I have to wonder why they started calling the other engineers (who don't operate locomotives or any other engines) by that term. It does seem to have been corrupted, much the same way that "technician" has. The general usage of the terms is that the "technician" has no formal training but knows how to do the job, while the "engineer" has the education but not the know-how.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

On electric interurban railroads (carrying long-distance passengers) the operator was also commonly known as a motorman, and some electric freight lines used the term "motorman" to refer to the operator of a freight motor. Perhaps on lines that used steam and electric, or later diesel and electric, the term "engineer" was carried over.

The term 'locomotive Engineer' dates from before the American Civil War and certainly pre-dates any electric interurban railroad.

Since most roads used steam and later Diesel Electric in overwhelming numbers over 'electric motors,' the term 'Locomotive Engineer' prevails.

Mark

well, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying--on railroads which started out as steam railroads, the term "engineer" came into use, and carried over to their electric and diesel-electric descendants, while on railroads built as electrics from their initial construction, "motorman" was commonly used until much later, typically when the freight motors were replaced by diesels.

[SolitaryJedi]

Point of view from Southern Ontario, Canada:

Although I have no 'official' experience with railroading, a cousin used to work on the railroad as an Engineer (on diesel's) and I grew up only thinking of him and others as such. Never heard the term 'driver' when referring to people commanding trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by steveiow

Drivers in the UK but our union is the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen-stange?

Yes... ASLEF is very strange [:)]... but the National Union of Railwaymen became RMT (Rail, Marine [&] Transport)...[Should that be Maritime?]. Don't ever go near TESSA!!!

[jeffhergert]

Some of UP's EMD locomotives have the ATC/CCS cab signal switches incorporated into the computer display instead of a seperate switch. On these engines there is a sign posted where the switches normally would be. I don't off hand remember the exact wording, but it uses "driver" instead of engineer.

Jeff

[sebamat]

in french: mécanicien : that is something like 'the one that works with an engine...'

in german. Lokomotivführer (yes Führer like in Hitler...): that means 'leader of the engine'.

in italian: macchinista (the one that works with an engine, it can also bee the engine of a ship).

Sebastiano

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

On electric interurban railroads (carrying long-distance passengers) the operator was also commonly known as a motorman, and some electric freight lines used the term "motorman" to refer to the operator of a freight motor. Perhaps on lines that used steam and electric, or later diesel and electric, the term "engineer" was carried over.

The term 'locomotive Engineer' dates from before the American Civil War and certainly pre-dates any electric interurban railroad.

Since most roads used steam and later Diesel Electric in overwhelming numbers over 'electric motors,' the term 'Locomotive Engineer' prevails.

HTH

Mark

[Jetrock]

On electric interurban railroads (carrying long-distance passengers) the operator was also commonly known as a motorman, and some electric freight lines used the term "motorman" to refer to the operator of a freight motor. Perhaps on lines that used steam and electric, or later diesel and electric, the term "engineer" was carried over.

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

On the New Haven, it was locomotive engineer pure and simple.. Engineers could operate both diesel and electric -- ask Noel Weaver on the NHRHTA forum (almost 50 years from NHRR to MN and Conrail). You were an engineer whether you ran FL-9's, PA-1's, or EP-5's... He FLIPPED OUT when he saw the term motorman once...

Motorman usually refers to light rail and subways... Heavy electric is/can be a totally different animal, hence engineer for most..

So..it's the same convention as used on the Pennsylvania? Hence the term 'Locomotive Engineer.'

Makes sense.....

Thanks!

Mark

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jshrade

Okay, my brain is telling me that they're called "Engineers" because originally they drove steam 'engines' thus, 'engine-eers', like the movie "Rocketeer"... he flew around with a rocket pack, therefor, 'rocket-eer', or like the Mickey Mouse Club 'mouse-ka-teers'.

Checking my 'Funk 'n Wagnalls...... the suffix 'ee'r is a convention used from 'old french method of labeling.'

So much of our legal english and titles are derived from Latin and 'Old French' words.

So along with the above quote there is.....

A 'Fusileer' is a soldier who carries and operates fuse actuated muskets.

A 'Musketeer' is trained in the operations of small arms (& No doubt Walt Disney's inspriation for "mouse-ka-teers" which has nothing to do with operating mice [#offtopic] ).

And.....

An 'Engineer' is trained in the science of operating engines that manuver (over rails or engines of war like tanks - my addition).'

In all seriousness about your concern with the Georgia codifcation of engineers, the term 'Locomotive Engineer' was codified by the Federal Government thru the USRA and the National Railroad Administration decades ago.

The term Locomotive Engineer still stands as an beaucratic headache to states who try to legislate the term 'Engineer.' Since the operation of railroads involves interstate commerce, most states usually end up making an exception.

The larger problem has been with people using the expression 'Sales Engineer' when they are neither engineers nor good sales people.

Traditionally, we always describe what type of engineering we do since the profession of 'Engineering' has become SO diverse (I should know since I'm an Architect in real life. [B)] ).

Happy Railroading....

Mark

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

On the New Haven, it was locomotive engineer pure and simple.. Engineers could operate both diesel and electric -- ask Noel Weaver on the NHRHTA forum (almost 50 years from NHRR to MN and Conrail). You were an engineer whether you ran FL-9's, PA-1's, or EP-5's... He FLIPPED OUT when he saw the term motorman once...

Motorman usually refers to light rail and subways... Heavy electric is/can be a totally different animal, hence engineer for most..

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Maybe where you live but here, you are a railroad locomotive engineer.

No maybe about it, David. Where I live the term is driver.

QUOTE: Drivers, drive stuff... Engineers operate trains.

Probably only in the United States, I'll wager...[;)]
I don't know what term is favoured in Canada, but in the English-speaking world men and women who drive trains are called train drivers. Even in many non-English speaking countries, the local term translates as driver.

QUOTE: Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not know ANY US engineers who call themselves "drivers".

Why would I be disappointed? In the US you use one term, the rest of the world uses something different. Nothing unusual about that. I'd only be disappointed if you were to insist that only the US usage was correct.

Cheers,

Mark.

LOL... OK[8D] I got the impression that you were insisting the Austrailian term drivers was "more" correct...[;)]

I hear ya...

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

[steveiow]

Drivers in the UK but our union is the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen-stange?

[tomikawaTT]

I'd like one of our French or Francophone members to let us know what the person at the throttle is called in France.

I recall reading that the throttle jockeys on French railways had to spend apprentice time in the shops, learning how to build, overhaul and maintain the machines they would later operate. Sounds similar to what I was exposed to on my (aborted) way to becoming a marine engineer.

Since I model the JNR, the katakana under 'assignment' on the call board is pronounced, "D'raiba."

Chuck

[AntonioFP45]

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

[Isambard]

In Canada the term "Engineer" or "Professional Engineer"is legally reserved for persons who are accredited by the professional engineering associations of the respective provincial authorities. These are generally graduates with an Engineering degree or equivalent or those who have appropriate experience and meet accreditation requirements.

In the days of steam in Canada the guy who controlled the locomotive was called an "Engineer", even by some of us who were proud to be professional engineers. I don't know what the Canadian practice is for those things called diesel locomotives.

I recall that at graduation time a cartoon was distributed around our school which showed a Mortimer Snerd-like yokel clutching a diploma and saying "Last weak I cudnt even spell "Ingineer" and now I are wun!"

"Engineers" are firmly in control of the Grizzly Northern's locomotives!
[:)]

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Maybe where you live but here, you are a railroad locomotive engineer.

No maybe about it, David. Where I live the term is driver.

QUOTE: Drivers, drive stuff... Engineers operate trains.

Probably only in the United States, I'll wager...[;)]
I don't know what term is favoured in Canada, but in the English-speaking world men and women who drive trains are called train drivers. Even in many non-English speaking countries, the local term translates as driver.

QUOTE: Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not know ANY US engineers who call themselves "drivers".

Why would I be disappointed? In the US you use one term, the rest of the world uses something different. Nothing unusual about that. I'd only be disappointed if you were to insist that only the US usage was correct.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AltonFan

I believe in the UK locomotive engineers are called "drivers".

That is correct, as well as countries where the railways have historical ties to the UK, such as Australia, New Zealand, Africa, India, South America, Japan, and so on.