Flying cars, switching maneuver

[Anonymous]

When I was a kid, back in the 60's I lived in a small village where a way freight would sopt cars at a feed mill as it was on its westbound trip. This local freight would sometimes have to spot cars on its eastbound trip. Since the switch for the feed mill was a stub end, it meant that for the east bound trip the switch was a facing point (cars could not be backed in in the ususal way). This meant that the cars to be spotted had to somehow gt into a position so that they could be "backed" into the switch. This move was called "flying" cars.

The move went like this. The locomotive would back up past the facing point (in this case west) about a half mile with the cars to be spotted. then, with trainman on board the tail-end car the locomotive would, with cars in tow, get up a fairly good rate of speed ( probably around 15 mph), the cars would then be uncoupled on the fly, with the locomotive speeding up even faster so as to clear the switch. The turnout was then turned to open the switch so that the trailing cars, still rolling, would roll into the switch. the trainman aboard the tail-end car, manning the hand brake, controlled the speed of the rolling cars, which, by the time they entered the switch were travelling at about 4-5 mph, then finally stopped by the trainman when the switch was suficiently cleared. The loco would then back up, enter the switch and spot the cars.

I wonder if anyone has ever ssen this switching move. I have to say, this is the most exciting switching move I have ever seen. I haven't heard of this move being done since that time. i wonder if, maybe, with all of the safety precautions that have been put into place since then and union influence, that maybe the move is not allowed now. I would like to know.

[ndbprr]

Exciting - yes. Illegal - yes on most railroads. It is called a flying switch and has been outlawed for a number of reasons on every railroad I know of. Among the possibilites are injured crews, derailments and damage to rolling stock and loads unless everything goes perfectly. Sometimes it doesn't. How do you explain you just nailed yoruself in the side with a rolling boxcar or you are on the ground because you split a switch and by the way the car is on its side on the other side of the turnout?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I have seen drops attempted only twice, both of them successful. As mentioned in several other threads, it is a high-risk maneuver and frowned upon by management since there are ample opportunities for screw-ups in attempting it.

[nbrodar]

I've done many things that awe the newbies, but a flying switch isn't one of them. Not only they been outlawed for the reasons ndbprr mentions, but it's nearly impossible to perform with only an engineer and conductor.

Now, if the grade cooperates, we do a static drop instead. Set the handbrake, pull the locomotive into the clear, release the brake, and the car (hopefully) rolls by the loco. The loco then comes out and picks up the car.

Nick

[Anonymous]

I've done this in 0 Gauge British outline but it is TOTALLY banned in real life.

[Anonymous]

I do appreciate the comments and the information. It was aparent to me that there were regulations against this move and they were obvious to me. Back then, the brake wheel was high up on high-profile types of rolling stock (like boxcars) and i was thinking at the time "better me than the guy at the brake wheel!"

[Anonymous]

Woops! I mean "better the guy at the brake wheel than me!" They delivered all boxcars full of grain back then too.

[tomikawaTT]

John Armstrong (again!) built a flywheel-powered box car that could coast well enough to simulate a flying switch, but was more usually used for push-and-coast drops. Having it in a train made life very interesting for the engineer.

Another technique that was once common and is now considered illegal is poling - pushing a car on an adjacent track with a wooden pole that fit into pockets in the end sills of cars and locomotives. (Now you know what that little round dimple in the end sill of an older car or steam locomotive did for a living.) The increase in potential for injury and property damage as cars got heavier and locomotives more powerful put an end to the practice.

Chuck

[joseph2]

I began working on an industrial railyard back in 1970. My first month on the job,the engineer decided to do a flying switch with a boxcar.It didn't roll into the clear so we had to use a pole to shove the car. Joe

[ndbprr]

Poling cars is another outlawed activity. Around 1900 the railroads even had special poling cars so they could switch cars on adjacent tracks. Too mnay splintered poles and injured workers caused that one to be eliminated also.

[ndbprr]

By the way, That is what that little disc shaped recess in the corner of older cars was for. It was supposed to be a place for the pole to engage the car and not slip.

[CSXFan]

Wow, I've never heard of any of this before. Guess I live a sheltered life [:)]. Are there any other moves like this?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXFan

Wow, I've never heard of any of this before. Guess I live a sheltered life [:)]. Are there any other moves like this?

Yes... there's moving a car on another track with a rope or the same move as a flying switch but using a rope between the loco and the car.
Somewhere in late C19 mags I saw an item about rail workers whacking holes into the side of cars with axes to provide a place to attach the rope clear of moving parts. There was also a problem of holes bwing cut in early steel cars to tie down loads. The solution patented for the latter was a design to gusset holes designed to be put in high in the sides of gondolas during building.
Many years ago (probably the 60s)
I was in Twyford Signalbox when the shunter (yard switcher) wanted to spot a car by rope. Way back then it was agreed but the signalman stopped it because the man on the track (insanely) wanted to ride the rope to save himself a walk. The signalman ended the resulting argument by almost knocking out the track man. That kind of stupidity often seems to only understand the argument of force.

Roping was banned for the same reasons as poling... plus ropes could break and whip or form loops round things... including people... Again, I knew a Signalman who had seen a man cut in half by a rope. That is something that I am very glad hasn't been part of my experience.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

The only thing I've seen remotely like a flying switch is called a oush and coast drop. The engineer gets up a little speed and the brakeman releases the locos coupler, the loco then stops. The car rolls free and coasts down the line, usualy about 300 to 400 yards, where it contacts and couples to the other cars. Sometimes they go a little to fast and shatter a coupler. The cra***he cars make as they come together is awesome.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I have heard of poling or roping. it was on that same way freight that a crew member, whom I knew, suffered a severe leg injury from either poling or roping. Back then, almost all of the rolling stock still had poling pockets on the bottoms of the end sills.

[nbrodar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffrey-wimberly

The only thing I've seen remotely like a flying switch is called a oush and coast drop. The engineer gets up a little speed and the brakeman releases the locos coupler, the loco then stops. The car rolls free and coasts down the line, usualy about 300 to 400 yards, where it contacts and couples to the other cars. Sometimes they go a little to fast and shatter a coupler. The cra***he cars make as they come together is awesome.

Out this way that's called kicking cars. And it takes a great deal of skill to do correctly. To little umph and the cars don't roll far enough. To much and you have a loud bang, or worse.

And if you are really good, and you have a string of cars, (and a fast switchman) the train never has to stop or back-up to get cars into several tracks.

Nick

[jimrice4449]

As a towerman/operator at Burbank Jct in the late sixties/early seventies I witnessed a frequently performed manuver that would probably lead to apoplexy among officials and dismissal among the of the crew today. It was called a Dutch Drop.
The yard limits for LA Yard extended about half way up the siding at Hewitt (the east end of which was at, and controlled by, Burbank Jct Tower. The yard limits for Gemco extend east to about half way up the siding at Hewitt. There was a short space between them that was., technically, main line. The Gemco job's chief function was to switch the GM assembly plant at Van Nuys which was fed auto parts cars by a turn making the round trip from LA Yard to the GM plant. Occasionally a hot car needed for the day's production wouldn,t arrive in time for that day's gemco turn so a switch crew would have to take it and deliver it to the Gemco job at Hewitt. That's when the fun began.
By the work-rules in effect at that time the switcher from LA Yard would get, in addition to their regular pay, 100 miles road pay for the 2 car lengths of "main line" and a full day's yard pay for working in Gemco yard limits. The officials had to be aware of the manuver used to avoid this while not shutting down the GM plant. The LA switch crew would run into the siding at Hewitt and drop a man at a trailing point switch into an industrial spur. The engine and hot car would then come back to the east end of Hewitt siding and start high-balling west. The engine would cut off from the car , tear past the switch, stop as the switch was thrown, and then run east into the spur in the face of the oncomming car. As soon as engine cleared the switch it was thrown to permit the car to continue by, where it was tied down w/ hand brakes. The engine would then come out of the spur and the hot car would be delivered to the Gemco job by gently kicking it across "no-man's-land". What made this especiall interesting is that it was done on an up grade! I strongly suspect that there was an understanding between crews and officials that immunity would apply if anything went wrong but it never did.

[Anonymous]

Legal or not I used to see moves like that every so often when I worked as a clerk on the UP in the 70s..(saw other roads do it too) You've got to remember that a crew was guaranteed 8 hours pay once they were called to work. The faster they got done, the faster they got to go home and still got paid for a full shift. There were crews that got their chores done in three hours and then went home. Tricks like the "flying switch" could take hours off a shift and many of those boys didn't mind bending the rules to get a good "quit" (go home early)

[Anonymous]

There was a flying switch spur on my prototype railroad. I heard ex-engineers telling how they needed to do a 'flying switch' to get cars onto this particular industrial spur. Thanks for the explanation, I never knew exactly what that meant but it didn't sound easy.

[Anonymous]

I know I've seen this thread before...........

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

[Mark300]

I just saw this thread.....

The first Grand Central Station the NY Central built in the 19th century required all of the arriving trains to utilize the flying switch manuver with the steam locomotive detaching from the train and allowing the consist to roll into the station. There was simply no way to turn a smokey engine in an enclosed shed with the station's original arrangement. The brakemen had to carefully coast the consist and stop precisely at the platform while neither stopping short or hitting the back of the station.

When the present Grand Central was rebuilt, steam was banned from Manhattan and a run around track involving 2 levels was utilized to deal with moving the locomotive.

Also in the Walt Disney's 'The Great Locomotive Chase,' they do a 'flying switch' as described above. Impressive to see the inertia a rolling boxcar has.

I guess in the era of link 'n pin couplers, polling cars and brakemen working the roove's of cars before air brakes, such things were part of the art of railroading; and a very dangerous way to make a living.

Listening to some of the stories members of my grand-parents' generation told about their railroad careers, I can understand the eventual abandonment of such practices and the birth of the railroader's motto......'Safety First!'

Happy Railroading,

Mark

[wjstix]

Oddly enough, last night I went back and rewatched the 1990's video "Chicago & Northwestern - Left-Handed Railroad" and it had a clip showing a steam powered commuter train doing something similar. The engine went from the inbound main to the outbound, then the engine pulled forward, the pin was pulled, and the engine was switched back to the inbound main with just enough time to throw the switch back so the cars drifted into the station. Then the engine was turned on a turntable and connected up to the train for the trip back to Chicago. For what ever reason, they didn't have a run-around track. Can't remember which town it was.

[Philcal]

These little "timesavers" were really frowned on by management on most roads., the old .pre Amtrak, Auto Train included.I recall the almost apoplectic look on an official's face, when a switch crew cut off about six ballast hoppers on the fly, and a very good switchman rode them to the SCL (CSX) interchange, rotating the handbrake all the way. He stopped the cut of cars smooth as silk, took his butt chewing,and we did it again about a month later.

[BigJim]

Man! I would rather swing cars than eat chicken on Sunday[;)] We used to do it all of the time...UNTIL...two things combined to kill the "Swing" or "Flying Switch".
Obviously, the crew consist agreements did away with enough crew members to perform the operation.
Just as important, was the invention of the Hi-Ad units, in particular GE units. Why? Because they couldn't get out of their own way once the pin was pulled!