Fastest 2-8-0's in Passenger service by 1914

[Anonymous]

Dear Friends,

I want to model a train that I found in a book. The train is being pulled by a
2-8-0 built by ALCO in 1911. The loco's number is 88 and it says that the engine weighed 236,000 pounds. I would like to know how fast this engine might be.
I would also like to know what the biggest drive wheels on any 2-8-0 might have been during or before 1914. I would like something that is fast if the ALCO is not fast enough. In case your curious, the book is "Night Probe" by Clive Cussler.

Thank you
Mike

[Anonymous]

A 2-8-0 I think would not be considered a particularly fast engine, nor a real passenger engine. You are right in thinking that bigger wheels enables faster speed, but I am not familiar with any 2-8-0 with big drivers... most that I have seen are dragging freight.

"Fast" is also relative. JR Booth's Canada Atlantic Railway was the first to offer "mile-a-minute" service around the turn of the (20th) century. His passenger engines included 4-4-0's, leading to 4-6-0's. The ten-wheelers (4-6-0) in turn were partly responsible for the development of the 4-6-2 Pacific type that became one of the premier passenger engines during the time before WW2.

If you know the road name of the engine in the picture, you might be able to find it on a roster somewhere (historical society for example) and get more info about it.

Good luck with your search.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Thank you Andrew for your help. Unfortunatley, the road name is irrelavant in this case because it's fictional. I don't believe that the New York & Quebec Northern ever existed. However, I could be wrong. The way it is set up in the book, the train is travelling south on the west side of the Hudson river. At a little town called Wacketshire, it will cross the river to the east side. My knowledge of that area isn't first hand so as far as I know the only rails on the Hudson are on the east side and would have belonged to the New York Central at that time.

Thanks
Mike

[Jetrock]

The bottom line is that 2-8-0s were not really meant for passenger service. Some were certainly used for that purpose, but it wasn't really their strong suit. Generally a passenger locomotive had fewer driving wheels and more wheels in front--thus, the 4-4-0 "American" and 4-6-0 "Ten-Wheeler" were more commonly found in passenger service. Four wheels in front meant better stability at high speed. Fewer drivers meant less total traction, far less important when hauling a few light passenger cars than a long string of heavy freight cars, and more room for the tall, high-stepping drivers preferred in a high-speed locomotive.

As a rule of thumb, the height of a locomotive's drivers in inches is roughly equal to its maximum cruising speed in miles per hour. So if you have any way to gauge how tall the drivers on that 2-8-0 are, you now have an idea of its regular top speed.

[West Coast S]

Not so, Western Pacific purchased a sub class from a standard Brooks design, for passenger service soon after completion 1910. These for many years served on the premier Exposition Flyer alongside equally capable Ten Wheelers. Blessed with a one percent grade profile, until former FEC 4-6-2's were obtained in 1936, that proved to be somewhat questionable as to performance, the
2-8-0's migrated to secondary passenger service were they served until steam was eliminated completely in 1953. Former engineers tale of runing these at over 60 mph as a matter of routine, above that speed they vibrated so badly as to become a safety issue.

Dave

[Anonymous]

There is more then 1 size of ALCO 2-8-0. The smaller one generally ran at 25 m.p.h. (on the L S & I) but top speed would be 35-40 m.p.h. (if you were lucky) the larger one would most likley do 40 m.p.h. 2-8-0's were mainly slow drag engines -i've heard of them pulling 100 cars at about 12 m.p.h.

[route_rock]

not to mention with no trailer truck youd get tossed around at a higher speed.But 2-8-0's were used to haul passengers at one time. Just have to go back a looooooooooooooonnnnnnnnng way.

[M636C]

The English Great Western Railway had a group of 2-8-0s with 68" driving wheels and I think these dated to about 1914, but I'd have to check. They lasted in service until the 1960s and were numbered from 4700. They were used for fast freight and passenger service at peak times.

M636C

[Anonymous]

Mike,

In the photo in the book you reference - is it a picture of a model, or a picture of the real thing? I am confused...? Do you want to copy a model or the prototype?

Andrew

[wjstix]

A rough rule of thumb on steam was the maximum speed would equal the driving wheels diameter in inches, so say an engine with 69" drivers could go up to about 69 MPH. Most 2-8-0's had drivers in the 51"-63" range. Circa 1911 NYC was using 4-4-0's and 4-6-0's on passenger trains with like 84" drivers (or bigger), some of which could go over 100 MPH.

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/detail.do?pnum=P04119

http://www.forecyte.com/nyccollection/

[ereimer]

there are some authors who research every detail when writing historical fiction , i have no idea if Clive Cussler is one of them or not , but generally getting reliable historical information from the cover of a novel or from any hollywood movie is highly unlikely

if you're looking for a good looking , nice running 2-8-0 in HO(1/87th) , check out the bachmann spectrum . they also make N scale(1/160th) and large scale (1/20th) 2-8-0s but you'd have to check with someone else on the quality of them , but i'd assume they're also very nice

[twhite]

Mike--I've read a couple of Clive Cussler novels, and whenever he starts using a train, I usually start blinking. The railroad you describe is probably the New York Central, and if you want a fast locomotive for that era, the NYC was already using 4-6-2's by about 1911 to haul some of their crack passenger trains. Except for several roads that used them for mountain passenger service (Western Pacific, Denver and Rio Grande, Colorado Midland), the 2-8-0 was the most common freight engine of that era. Bowser makes a kit of the NYC Pacific that can be back-dated to the 1911-14 era, or you could get a Bachmann Spectrum 10-wheeler, which WAS the most common passenger locomotive wheel arrangement during that time.
Cussler knows how to write a zingy adventure novel, but I don't think that railroad authenticity is his forte, LOL!
Tom

[tomikawaTT]

RE rails on the west shore of the Hudson.

If south of Albany, that would be the New York, West Shore and Albany, aka New York Central West Shore division. Both it and the better-known NYC main line on the east shore used a pancake for a profile and ran fast, high-drivered passenger steam.

The only place I could imagine a 2-8-0 in passenger service (other than a present-day tourist line) would be on a severely-graded mountain route, where speed would be controlled by rail curvature, not driver size.

[rtstasiak]

During the winter months, the former Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh / Baltimore and Ohio made use of its 2-8-0s for passenger service. Train speeds were rather low because the lines served curved in every direction.

These locals tied up next to "varnish" like the Pheobe Snow in Buffalo because B&O rented space from the DL & W.

In any event, it is your railroad, and if there's a theme that favors 2-8-0's then it is perfectly OK. I'd just add steam and signal lines to the pilot and tender of the 2-8-0 to keep the passengers comfortable and safe.

Rich

[Anonymous]

Cussler was indeed no expert on trains; he knew much of shipping and diving. The 2-8-0 is an error, and so too is the bridge of which he wrote, crossing the Hudson with a Manhattan-bound passenger train. If it existed, the route would as noted be the West Shore NYC crossing below Albany to the east shore NYC by means of a lift bridge. Does he not, in his plot, have the train diverted and concealed for ages in an old mine tunnel while the authorities unsuccessfully dredge the Hudson looking for it beneath the open bridge? The 2-8-0 does, however, appear fairly often as a passenger engine in old ICC accident reports of the 1920's and 1930's on small rr's and branch lines.