Empty Paperwork

[cefinkjr]

You're right, Dave. The X29 was a steel car so this might have been an X23. I'm certain that it was a wooden, outside braced box with an unusually low roof (for 1970). There was hardly a scrap of paint on it and the wood had dried out so that the whole thing went up like a torch.

Chuck

[dehusman]

An X29 is an all steel car (other than the floor and lining). It was probably an X23 or USRA single sheathed car.

There was an old X23 converted into a caboose (like the ones Westerfield makes) at the Phoenixville Steel Mill in PA up into the 1980's. It was in great shape.

Dave H.

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

... The long term cars are put in a siding or out on some branch for months and not used until business levels pick up to where they can keep turning the cars.

Dave H.

Reminds me of a time in Richmond, IN right after the NYC-PRR merger when an X29 boxcar (yeah, outside framed wood sides) was found off in the weeds. The turnout leading to that spur and much of the spur had long since been torn up. The Trainmaster (or someone else who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty) tossed a lighted fusee in the car and told somebody to call the fire department --- in an hour or so. [}:)]

[#offtopic] Yes, the previous story is off topic but might give somebody a chuckle. [:D]

Besides, I've alway wanted to use the Off Topic Smilie and this is my chance to do so without offending anybody.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all that have tried to help me understand this. I printed this out & will take it home to analize this,with my neighbor the rocket scientist. I guess there's a lot of scenerios here. Easter.

[dehusman]

If its just a general service car it goes where ever they need a boxcar around SF or where ever the SP needs boxcars or whereever the SP holds surplus cars either in SF or another location. If a railroad has so many cars that they set around for a while before being needed, it puts some in long term storage to drive the inventory down so as soon as a boxcar is empty, there is a load waiting for it. The long term cars are put in a siding or out on some branch for months and not used until business levels pick up to where they can keep turning the cars.

Dave H.

[jimrice4449]

Oh I've got a more complicated situation yet! For a while the Milw had an agreement w/ the Southern to "average per diem". If the SR had a surplus of Milw cars on line the Milw could use SR cars as if they were theirs and vice versa.
As for your example (the SP didn't go to Barstow, but that's quibiling and doesn't advance the conversation), these "mty returning" problems only arise in the case of "off line" cars. Assigned cars would generally have a notation to that effect on the waybill and frequently "When empty return to SP agent Barstow"stenciled on the car itself. You've probably seen them at some time, although it's not done as much now as in the past.

[cefinkjr]

Easter:

As usual, it depends. [:)]

If both the shipper and the consignee are served by SP, the car is now available for any other SP customer unless it's assigned to service that shipper. If it's an assigned car, it goes back to the yard that serves the shipper in Barstow and sits there until that shipper orders it spotted for loading again. That much is really pretty simple.

Where it gets to be a whole lot more fun (read that as "more complicated") is when a load is picked up by one road, handled by one or more others, and is spotted for unloading by one more. Then what happens to the empty? Again, it depends. [:)]

If the car in question belongs to the road that spotted it for unloading (and it's not a dedicated car), it will typically be moved to the local yard and held there awaiting a need for that car type. If that car belongs to some other railroad and it's not a dedicated or pool service car and it's not a privately owned car (a non-railroad owner) and ......, some car service rules (depending on the rules in effect at the time) will require the car to be returned to its owner via the reverse route. In other words, if railroad ABC picked up the load and interchanged it to railroad DEF and then railroad GHI spotted it at its destination, the empty would be moved by railroad GHI back to railroad DEF which would in turn move it back to railroad ABC. Clear as mud? Now you know why railroad yard clerks, agents, and similar folks can frequently be heard mumbling to themselves. [:D]

Now just about the time you think you understand the above, you should consider that car service rules sometimes allow an empty being moved by the reverse route to be loaded in the direction of its owner. Got a headache yet?

My original question asked what kind of paperwork would follow an empty in any of the above situations. I think Jim Rice answered that pretty well but if anybody else has some different information, I'd like to hear it.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

hey guys,forgive me,but I'm totolly confused. Lets say an empty box car,road name,SP. Is sitting in a yard in La MIranda CA. It,s sent to pick up a full car load at some manufacturer in Barstow. It delivers the product in S.F.Where does it go from there??? what's the last destination posted on the waybill??? Thanks Easter

[cefinkjr]

Jim:

Based on your profile, you're pretty close to my age (just turned 63) and I know all too well what you mean about a geriatric memory. [swg]

I know car service rules for handling empties changed from time to time. At one point, empties were to be returned via the shortest route regardless of their loaded routing. I think the "reverse route" that you mentioned was more common though.

Then there were pool service cars (cars from multiple roads dedicated to serving one shipper with plants served by different roads). I remember one very large shipper who acted like these cars were his property instead of the railroads' (until it came time to repair them). I expect these were also handled with "empty waybills" but maybe needed a bit more savvy on the part of yard clerks/agents.

Chuck

[jimrice4449]

If you check the dates I gave for my opr/clerk career (I switched to brkmn the last 2 years w/ milw and went as brkmn to the BN) you can see that we're testing the limits of my geriatric memory but if it hasn't gone completely to Hell the regular waybill was used w/ some sort of notation to the effect "Mty returning reverse route."

[cefinkjr]

Jim:

Everything you said fits with my memories and experiences. Your post about "empty waybills" kind of filled in a gap. Did either the SP or MILW use special forms for empty waybills or were they regular waybill forms with some kind of empty notation on them?

A great uncle of mine was a B&O agent/operator until about 1955 or so. I can remember helping him prepare waybills for loads originating at his station (actually at an industry about 5 miles away). All waybills had to be typed in those days (manually, of course) and I can clearly recall cramming as many reporting marks as possible on a single waybill.

I just can't recall seeing a waybill that moved empties.

Chuck

[jimrice4449]

As far as the local crew deciding "ad hoc" it didn't happen. The consignee would have to call and report the car empty and the local crew would be instructed, generally by way of a switchlist for the location of the industry w/ a notation "TOX' for an empty or "TOL" for a load. The car would move on the authority of the switchlist until it got to the local's terminal and from there on would require a bill for movement. It was customary for the
shipper to provide bills for loads either from the office of the shipper or, more likely, left in a regular rural type mailbox at the siding. The information would then be transcribed by the billing clerk onto the regular waybill that would accompany the car to its destination.

[jimrice4449]

When I was working for the SP (1964-75) and the Milwaukee (1976-1979) empty waybills were used. They would typically include "reverse routing" instructions. If a car was loaded at Erie Pa on the PC and interchanged w/ the RI at Blue Island Il and the SP at tucumcarri NM, and it wasn't possible to find a load for it headed in that direction, it would be sent back via the same route it travelled under load. Occasionally a group of cars would be sent on a single waybill w/ numbers for each of the cars on the same bill.

[dehusman]

leighant : Yes the local might know which car had been emptied, but once they go it back to they ard, how would you know that that specific car was an empty to go home instead of a load to be delivered? That's where some sort of paperwork has to come in.

I have seen "empty car waybills" that were half the size of a regular waybill (4 1/4 x 11). They also may have kept track of it on various "wheel reports", train lists or track lists. In addition some railroads also used tags stapled to the cars for routing. The GH&H (Galveston, TX) was jointly owned by the MP and MKT. All inbound cars got a blue (MP) or tan (MKT) card stapled to them on arrival Galvez Yard. When the cars came back into the yard after being loaded/unloaded they were switched out MP or MKT based on what color tag was on them.

Dave H.
Dave H.

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

I would imagine that when empties were accumulated at one yard, and a call came in for empties needed, say for the grain rush in Grainball, Kansas, a waybill might be made up for that movement.

That might be OK for local handling of home road cars but I was really thinking of foreign empties. I know that per diem charges (paid by ABC RR to car owner DE&F) have always been an incentive to get empties loaded or to their home road as soon as possible. And I can accept that local crews would have standing orders to pick up emptied cars (consignees don't want to pay per diem either).

Chuck

I have trouble, though, believing that cars would move in through freights or in interchange between roads without paper work of some kind.

[leighant]

Let me hazard a guess, and then someone tell me if it is right or not. I suspect that when a local crew found a car on a spur that had been emptied there (ie not one that went there to be loaded) they would more or less automatically pick it up and take it to a yard, depending on more or less general "standing orders" about handling cars at that customer.

I don't know whether waybills would be used/needed on cars stenciled "when empty return to ----."

I would imagine that when empties were accumulated at one yard, and a call came in for empties needed, say for the grain rush in Grainball, Kansas, a waybill might be made up for that movement. Perhaps for any empty movement in a through train.

But this is mostly a surmise. Anybody know?

[dehusman]

Some roads used an empty car "waybill", other roads didn't use any paperwork at all.

Dave H.

[cefinkjr]

What kind of paperwork accompanied an empty car in the 30s, 40s, and 50s (pre-computer) when moving in a through freight or when it was interchanged to another road?

Chuck