Whats Up with the EAST???

[Anonymous]

BTW. Don't forget Erie which lasted with the DLW into EL days. The EL itself lasted passed PC into 1974-5 with freight service through until the emergence of Conrail in mid-70s.

The basic infrastructure still remains along most of the main from Port Jervis to Chicago. And, in the Southern Tier of New York. NS, which owns the Erie Main, has upgraded the single track to where most from Meadville, Pa., to Hornell, N.Y. is up to 40-mph up from 0 (that is, tracks torn up and graded flat by Conrail) 10 years ago.

So, a lot of the oldies are gone. But there is good news. Sort of.

[rrandb]

No one has mentioned the Florida Eact Coast railway (FEC) which not long ago celebrated its 100th year aniversary. They have around 400 miles of first class mainline railroad between Jacksonville and Miami FL. I read somewhere that after 60 years they paid there first dividend on the stock and the president of the road said "Up untill now we had a perfect record on dividends, we had never paid one!!!" [2c] I know it is not a northeast road but at least it has EAST in its name... lol

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alex999uk
....Pittsburgh (or Pittsburg, I cant remember)

That's Pittsburg if you're in Texas or Kansas or ??? or if it's 1902 (?) to 1910 in Pennsylvania; otherwise it's Pittsburgh.

Sidenote on the missing 'H': It was (is?) missing on the facade of the Pittsburg Union Terminal (aka the Pennsylvania passenger station) which was completed in 1910.

Chuck

PS: Yeah, I know my profile says I live in Allen, TX. I do but I was born and raised about 30 miles south of Pittsburgh.

[wjstix]

Long story short:

C&O + B&O + WM = Chessie System (1960's-80's)

SCL + LN + others = Seaboard System (1970's-80's)

Chessie + Seaboard = CSX ("Chessie Seaboard Multiplied") late 80's-today

BTW Pittsburgh was spelled "Pittsburg" until about 1910 when they changed it, don't know why though??

[ElectricMotive]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allrailsgone

It would be amazing to think of what it would be like if big business didn't buy out all the roads...and we had most...if not all the classics still running.

Or, all the "classic" roads would have gone bankrupt, closed up shop, and no trains would be running. For all the complaining that we (railfans, including myself) sometimes do about how "everything's the same" when it comes to paint schemes and whatnot, I'd definitely rather see a lot of "same" NS units than no trains at all.

[Anonymous]

It would be amazing to think of what it would be like if big business didn't buy out all the roads...and we had most...if not all the classics still running.

[David_Telesha]

Actually America's First railroad was a Quarry Railroad in Mass.

It later became part of the New Haven. The charter for this RR pre-dates the B&O.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Once there was a railroad called the B&O. It was the first railroad in the United States.

Some time after the civil war the PRR was born along with the NYC in thier respective areas. The NYC Hudsons would race the PRR K4's along the great lakes in the early 30's with top of line limited passenger trains.

I believe the Seaboard Air Line slowly grew out of the south over time.

The western Maryland became known as the Wild Mary due to it's tight curves and hard charging steamers hauling as much as the drawbars can stand. Thiers was a interchange service that was able to transfer loads almost if not faster than the larger railroads.

The Southern eventually came up and prided themselves with excellent service and fine performance.

Finally.. the PRR and NYC wanted to become one railroad. The Penn Central. I think the Government had a problem with a potential monoploy and created the PC.

The B&O, C&O (Known as the Chessie) eventually became one railroad later absorbing the WM and incorperating the SAL to become the CSX.

That is the extent of my knowledge. I can tell you right now that it is shaky and full of "Mistakes" easily ripped by experts in your paticular question

But I hope enough of it is correct to guide you down the correct path to understanding the East.

I could ask you the same question about the WEST.

ASTF
SP
UP
WP
NP
CP
D&RG

etc etc

The PRR was incorporated in 1847,before the War Between the States.

[coalminer3]

Two books by Richard Saunders that provide excellent coverage are
Merging Lines
and
Main Lines

They are the best out there on the mergers and all that happened with them.

work safe

[coachayers]

Dehusman pretty much nailed it. Conrail was bought by both Norfolk Southern (formerly Southern Railway and Norfolk and Western Railway - merged) and CSX (formerly the lines noted plus Louisville and Nashville, Clinchfield, and some others). NS bought about 55% and CSX the remainder. Interestingly, the purchase separated the old NYC and PRR with NS getting the Pennsy and CSX getting the NYC for the most part. Conrail equipment that has not been repainted is running on both NS and CSX. I guess as a salute to the old lines, the NS equipment has a small "PRR" painted above the Conrail number and the CSX equipment has a small "NYC". Therefore if you see blue Conrail engines with a "PRR" on them, they are now part of NS.

[dehusman]

alex999uk you got parts of it right, parts were really garbled.

The problem arose when the NYC backed the building of the South Penn railroad on a line roughly parallel to the existing PRR main and the PRR started building a line up the west shore of the Hudson parallel to the NYC. Both the NYC and PRR already went to Pittsburgh (with the "h" on the end).
JP Morgan had financial interests in both railroads and didn't whant them competeing head to head, so he got both presidents on his yacht and "convinced' them to stop the projects. The PRR sold its line to the NYC and it became the West Shore route of the NYC. The PRR abandoned the South Penn line. Later it was bought by the State of Pennsylvania as right of way for the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Two of the original railroad tunnel bores are still in use today as highway tunnels (widened and lined for a highway).

Neither of those lines caused either railroad to fail. However it did cause several other railroads that were trying to build empires which hinged on those routes to fail, such as the P&R (Reading). It went under and came under the control of the B&O, the P&R lost control of the LV.

Ironically the railroad that ended up benefiting the most was the narrow gauge East Broad Top with ended up hauling construction materials for the Turnpike in the 1950's.

One other piece of trivia. Back in the early days there was a tremendous amount of confusion on the spellings of "burg"s. Some towns used "...burg" and some used "...burgh". So the US Post Office decreed that all burgs had to be spelled "...burg" with the one exception that Pitteburgh, PA was allowed to be the only "...burgh."

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Hi im a new guy to the forum, i hope my post is of some use.
Although im not a resident of the US I have been reading the background prior to Conrail, and one thing hasnt been said: Vanderbilt's Folly

Morgan (PRR) and Vanderbuilt (NyC) both wanted to connect Pittsburgh (or Pittsburg, I cant remember) to New York, but niether wanted to have joint ownership of the line. Morgan started first, backed buy six bussinessmen from Eire PA. Vanderbilt put up an equal amount from his own pocket and surveyed his own route, but this was longer, and had more tunnels and bridges to construct. After costs rose by x10 Morgan borrowed money, Vanderbuilt fled to a hotel he owned in NJ. after about 3 years of living there in secrecy ( as the police were after him) he recived a note form Morgan offering a truce and joint ownership of the line.

So with the line abandoned for about 80/100 years the US goverment put into practice the road building techneques they learnt from the Germans during WW2. They find a route already half built, Vanderbuilt's and finish it off to open the first highway in the US.

Hope this story makes some sense, quite amazing to show how Vanderbilt helped tp cause his own railroad/successor to fail.

Oh and 10% of PC's property was hotels, car dealerships etc, I read that somewhere ;)

Feel free to flame ;)

[AltonFan]

But George Drury, in The Historical Guide to North American Railroads, pointed out that one thing that upset those plans was that the PRR owned substantial holdings in other lines. (In the plan given in that book, the PRR and the Long Island were merged with each other, and nobody else; a testimony to the dominance of PRR at that time.)

Ironic detail: Stuart Saunders, the president of PC when it failed, came from N&W, which had a reputation as an efficient and well-run railroad!

[dehusman]

Another interesting thing is that there have been numerous plans, dating back to the 1920's, to consolidate the railroads in the NE.

Dave H.

[AltonFan]

There are two books on the failure of the Penn Central. The Wreck of the Penn Central, which I believe was written by reporters who covered the story, and No Way to Run a Railroad, which relied heavily on accounts given by PC's former Chief Financial Officer. The latter book is said to be used as a textbook in certain business schools as an example of how not to do business.

PC is still in the real estate business as well. In my old job, I recall reading about lawsuits where farmers had to sue to regain property that PC sold without actually owning.

[dehusman]

The rails in the northeast were a case of too many in too little of an area, serving a collapsing industrial base and having extensive passenger operations. The coal industry collapsed and delt a serious blow to the PRR, RDG, CNJ, LV, LNE, LHR, DLW(EL) and to a lesser extent the WM, BO and CO. At the same time the steel industry was under pressure and steel mills and other heavy industrial facilities were closing left and right. The Federal government also wouldn't let the railroad get rid of that bottomless cash flow pit, passenger service, either.

Labor disagreements with coal miners killed the LNE. The traffic base of the LV evaporated. The CNJ had been in financial trouble since the 30's.

The NYC and PRR decided to merge in 1968 and form Penn Central. It was the right idea but it was incredibly poorly managed (it makes the UP-SP merger a shining example of efficiency), the attempts at unifying the management and information systems was bungled and the PC was so ham strung with grandfathered labor agreements that it could achieve its efficiencies. It went down and took the remaining railroads in the NE that were marginal with it. The Federal Government went in and formed Amtrak and unloaded the passenger albatross, then formed Conrail, revised the labor agreements and then finally passed the Staggers act which prevented the Western railroads from following the eastern lines down the tubes (the RI and MILW had already died).

The railroads in the SE and Midwest had been consolidating all during this time :
BO+CO+WM = Chessie
ACL+SBD+LN=Family Lines
NW+WAB=NW

Ultimately the consolidations continued until ther were the big two in the East and the big two in the west.

Dave H.

[balearic]

QUOTE: In regard to the Seaboard it merged with the Atlantic Coast Line and took the monikor Seabord Coast Line. That merged with L&N and maybe a couple of others (Norfolk Southern and Georgia come to mind but I specialize in Pennsy so that would need research). The SCL, L&N merger created the SCL/L&N Family Lines logo that was absrobed by Chessie.

The original Norfolk Southern was merged into the Southern. As mentioned before, SAL and ACL merged to become SCL. SCL succeeded ACL as majority stockholder in L&N. Clinchfield was co-owned by L&N and ACL/SCL, and WofA, A&WP and Georgia RR were also more or less owned by ACL/SCL. Those companies billed themselves at the Family Lines in the '70s, but didn't merge until the early '80s when they combined to form Seaboard System.

[ndbprr]

In regard to the Seaboard it merged with the Atlantic Coast Line and took the monikor Seabord Coast Line. That merged with L&N and maybe a couple of others (Norfolk Southern and Georgia come to mind but I specialize in Pennsy so that would need research). The SCL, L&N merger created the SCL/L&N Family Lines logo that was absrobed by Chessie. As an Aside the Family Lines bought the BQ-23 diesels from GE that had crew cabs. there were about eight all together and they were very odd for the day. I saw one in the B&OCT yard in Riverdale, Ill. after Chessie took themn over once. I never saw another one they were that rare. By the way the PRR was formed in 1847 well before the civil war not after if I am not mistaken and one of the odd thing about the CR breakup in that at one time the PRR had a major ownership of the Norfolk and Western which became half of NS. In addition to lumping all the Northeaster railroads into the PenCentral merger in my opinion it allowed the government to take ownership at about ten cents on the dollar when they failed. there is a book called, "The wreck of the Penn Central" which is interesting and frustrating to read as it was doomed from the start. the PRR and NYC computers couldn't even communicate so vast portion of both roads had no idea where cars were. It was later determined that since the vast bulk of population lives in the east that it rerquired over 2700 switch crews a day to switch the industries and customers and that number may be much higher. Western roads on the other hand had extremely long runs without stopping which is the profitable end of the business.

[Anonymous]

I think PC still owns some big real estate in New York City, and there are a couple of bigger short lines spun off former conrail, one's in Pa but the name slips me right now.Speaking of NS's southern tier line, last saturday I saw three different trains on that line(former E-L thru delaware valley) all with CSX power,and that line doesn't get much traffic any more.

[balearic]

Southern merged with Norfolk and Western to form Norfolk Southern. CSX supposedly meant "C for Chessie, S for Seaboard, X for our multiplied strength as one company." However, I read CSX was just a shorthand term used by lawyers during preceedings before the government, and they just decided to use that because they had no better alternative that wasn't already copyrighted.

[balearic]

The current issue of Trains is about the whole CSX-NS-CR situation. The article would provide far more info than we probably can here. It took place in the summer of 1999. There were still some blue units the last time I drove by Enola, for what it's worth.

Mike, do you realize it wasn't just that "Pennsy still thought it was still the big railroad" (which it really was) that caused the problems. Between the St. Lawrence Seaway and delving into pipelines and other enterprises that cut into their own railroad revenues, Pennsy and the Central basically committed financial suicide. Remember, Penn Central lives on under a different ame as an insurance company -- they just got rid of the railroad because it qasn't as profitable as other investments.

Seaboard, as I mentioned, merged with ACL to form SCL, which formed part of the "Family Lines System" which merged to become the Seaboard System, which in turn became part of CSX.

There are other companies than just CSX and NS in the East. CP is active, as Mike mentioned; most of that is the former Delaware and Hudson. CP and Canadian National run trains over NS's Southern Tier Line (the former E-L, former Erie route from Buffalo to New York). Springfield Terminal and Bangor and Aroostook are still operationg. I guess it all depends on what you mean by "shortlines," though.

[Anonymous]

Seaboard was also absorbed by CSX. If I remember correctly, the C in CSX stands for "Chessie" as in "Chessie System" and the S stands for either "Seaboard" in "Seaboard System" or perhaps "Southern" as in "Southern Railroad". I seem to remember reading somewhere that Chessie and Seaboard were two of the first roads to make up CSX. Can anybody verify/refute this?

[Anonymous]

cp rail is big in northeast also

[Anonymous]

Thankyou alot for clearing all that up!

One more thing, now days who is left?

I know CSX, NS, and i guess also NYSW.

What happend to Seaboard?

Is CSX NS NYSW all that is left besides small short lines and locals?

Also, when did Conrail go to the CSX? Thanks, Ben

[Anonymous]

the pennsy was broke,the central a little beter,but pennsy thought it was still the big railroad,the combination of that and bankrupt new haven and the whole thing was a mess.pc tried to get all the freight bussines in the northeast and broke erie lackawanna,lehigh valley reading and the rest. conral was formed cleaned up the mess getting rid of unprofitable lines braches etc,selling some,abandoning others.ns/csx bought the whole thing devided as stated above,how well they'll do still remains to be seen....

[balearic]

QUOTE: The PC became the center of Conrail which swept most of the remaining Eastern railroads up as well (Reading, Susquehanna, Nickle Plate etc.).

Norfolk and Western gobbled up NKP in 1964, and the Susie-Q is still around.

http://www.nysw.com/

Conrail was made from PC, Erie-Lackawanna, Reading, Lehigh and Hudson River, Central of New Jersey, and Lehigh Valley, and was sold to CSX and Norfolk Southern. Generally, CSX got former New York Central lines, and NS got former Pennsy lines; the other roads' former properties were divided between CSX and NS.

The Southern was the result of a merger between the Richmond and Danville and East Tennessee, Virginia & Georgia railroads. The merger was one of several brought about by J.P. Morgan (another was Atlantic Coast Line).

http://www.answers.com/topic/southern-railway-us
http://www.srha.net/

SAL was another amalgamation of shortlines in the Southeast. The best treatment of the story is Through the Heart of the South: The Seaboard Air Line Railroad Story by Robert Wayne Johnson. SAL merged with ACL in 1967 to for Seaboard Coast Line, mainly because they were parallel competitors whose assets would be better used as one company -- sort of like Penn Central was envisioned, except SCL actually worked.

http://www.aclsal.org/

I hope that helps you some.

[Anonymous]

Actually the PennCentral was guaranteed to fail with or without the New Haven. The PRR was "sick" financially and the NYC was not much better. The PC became the center of Conrail which swept most of the remaining Eastern railroads up as well (Reading, Susquehanna, Nickle Plate etc.). The financial sucess of Conrail is indicative of the weakness of the rail industry in the East in general. All the welded rail put in to the New York - Washinton corridor was window dressing on the money loosing passenger business on the Pennsy. So the East finally got the great "grants" of the Central and Union Pacifics from the government one hundred years late.
Will

[jimrice4449]

PRR was originally a state project to connect Philadelphia w/ the hinterland. The NYC was an offshoot of the maritime interests of Comodore Vanderbilt. Both eventually reached Chicago & St Louis. From the earliest times RRs got bigger by merging (gobling up) smaller roads. After WWII things accelerated substantially starting w/ the GM&O merging w/ the Alton (formerly owned by the B&O) When N&W merged w/ the Virginian and then the Nickle Plate and the Waba***hings really got hot. PRR and NYC merged into the Penn Central which the govt gauranteed to fail by requiring they also take in the New Haven. When that led to the biggest bankruptcy in US history, the govt. took all of the bankrupt roads in the east and made Conrail, which by dint of being run by railroaders instead of lawyers and accountants made a go of it and eventually was bought by the 2 megaRRs, NS (Norfolk & Western/Southern) and CSX (evrybody else east of the Mississippi). Basically NS got what used to be the PRR and CSX got mostly the former NYC.
As for the West, Im going to bed now, let somebody else do it.

[jimrice4449]

PRR was originally a state project to connect Philadelphia w/ the hinterland. The NYC was an offshoot of the maritime interests of Comodore Vanderbilt. Both eventually reached Chicago & St Louis. From the earliest times RRs got bigger by merging (gobling up) smaller roads. After WWII things accelerated substantially starting w/ the GM&O merging w/ the Alton (formerly owned by the B&O) When N&W merged w/ the Virginian and then the Nickle Plate and the Waba***hings really got hot. PRR and NYC merged into the Penn Central which the govt gauranteed to fail by requiring they also take in the New Haven. When that led to the biggest bankruptcy in US history, the govt. took all of the bankrupt roads in the east and made Conrail, which by dint of being run by railroaders instead of lawyers and accountants made a go of it and eventually was bought by the 2 megaRRs, NS (Norfolk & Western/Southern) and CSX (evrybody else east of the Mississippi). Basically NS got what used to be the PRR and CSX got mostly the former NYC.
As for the West, Im going to bed now, let somebody else do it.