OK Forum friends got another one I need some help with. I'm (preliminarily) thinking about buying another engine for my fictional shortline. It operates on part of the old CMStP&P PCE. In my version of events the PCE was embargoed in 1970 as a result of the BN merger and finances rather than in 1980 as in real history. (I model 72 to the BN-Frisco merger date.)
The short line currently uses S-4 switchers for freight hauling. Management is thinking that a road unit might be a needed addition. To keep repairs simpler, another Alco unit is wanted. The question I have is which RS unit would be the most reasonable. (I'm not very knowledgable on Alco units.) Thank you as usual for any assistance that can be provided.
I'd recommend an RS-3 or RS-11, both were widely produced, with the RS-3 having over a thousand built. If you just want something Alco-built and bigger, you could also look at the Century series that they built in the 60s.
For parts reasons. Matching the power plant in the s-4 with the one in the road unit is a starting point. The s-4 had a turbo version of the 539 series. Which puts it that the road unit would be an rs1. Would be ideal as they had 539 power plants as well. If they chose an rs3, they would be getting the trouble some 244. Interestingly. Also made a patch for that. It worked extremely well but not soon enough to convince class 1 that first got them. That the 244 design was worth it. Thus killing Alcoa future. The patch applied, second and third owners came back with good reliability and fuel numbers. So those owners did seek them out. So a patched rs3 is desireable. Just a good number of different parts to warehouse. also possible are the cf7. Or gp7. That end reject, of a bl2 would be cheap. Since they were now older and coming on th eused market. They would be more expensive since the demand for them would be higher. Depends on the finances of your short line. Don't forget. Bald wins and fm are also going on the used market as well. Cheap.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
NVSRR For parts reasons. Matching the power plant in the s-4 with the one in the road unit is a starting point. The s-4 had a turbo version of the 539 series. Which puts it that the road unit would be an rs1. Would be ideal as they had 539 power plants as well.
For parts reasons. Matching the power plant in the s-4 with the one in the road unit is a starting point. The s-4 had a turbo version of the 539 series. Which puts it that the road unit would be an rs1. Would be ideal as they had 539 power plants as well.
That goes along with what Iwas thinking to keep the parts simpler.
NVSRR also possible are the cf7. Or gp7. That end reject, of a bl2 would be cheap. Since they were now older and coming on th eused market. They would be more expensive since the demand for them would be higher. Depends on the finances of your short line. Don't forget. Bald wins and fm are also going on the used market as well. Cheap.
also possible are the cf7. Or gp7. That end reject, of a bl2 would be cheap. Since they were now older and coming on th eused market. They would be more expensive since the demand for them would be higher. Depends on the finances of your short line. Don't forget. Bald wins and fm are also going on the used market as well. Cheap.
At one point many years ago, I had thought about getting CF7s for my road but evolved to the GP20 fleet I have. Unfortunately the prices I've seen for CF7s have driven the accountant to revolt!
I've looked at the BL2 and I'm not totally sure on them as they look a bit ugly to me. However they are under consideration.
I'm just not sure about the GP7 being quite right with an Alco fleet.
Whatever I decide (although I'm leaning toward the RS-1) the finance department will have to do some planning to accomplish it.
Around your time frame there were builders that would take your worn out locomotives in , remove the trucks and reuse them under newer locomotives. I believe it was EMD but ALCO had a similar program. Roads would trade cab units for non cab units. But they ended up with trucks from the cab units. Some roads repowered ALCOs with EMD running gear.
Anyway, it's your railroad and the board of directors have the last say.
Pete.
Hello All,
FRRYKidI've looked at the BL2 and I'm not totally sure on them as they look a bit ugly to me. However they are under consideration. I'm just not sure about the GP7 being quite right with an Alco fleet.
A BL2 is basically a GP with a different body style.
So your maintenance department would have the same parts issues.
I'd stick with an ALCO RS.
The RS-11 would be a good addition.
My snowplow MOW train has a mix of ALCO and EMD motive power that play well together.
My maintenance shops are adept and working on all brands and types of locomotives.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
wrench567 Around your time frame there were builders that would take your worn out locomotives in , remove the trucks and reuse them under newer locomotives. I believe it was EMD but ALCO had a similar program. Roads would trade cab units for non cab units. But they ended up with trucks from the cab units. Some roads repowered ALCOs with EMD running gear. Anyway, it's your railroad and the board of directors have the last say. Pete.
I have seen pictures of GP35s riding around on Alco trucks but that's too new. I also know that the NP repowered their VO1000s with EMD power but models of those are expensive.
FRRYKidI'm just not sure about the GP7 being quite right with an Alco fleet.
Consist by Bear, on Flickr
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Seems to me that a potential choice would be the T6 with road trucks:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/3562/10.24.jpg
If an end-cab short locomotive with higher horsepower and AAR type B trucks is desirable, one of the FM H20-44s would fit the bill.
You could also probably re-truck one or more of the S4s with the "RS1" road trucks if you wanted the most 'parts and service compatibility'... in real life you'd need better transition control but that wouldn't show in a model.
JaBear FRRYKid I'm just not sure about the GP7 being quite right with an Alco fleet. Consist by Bear, on Flickr
FRRYKid I'm just not sure about the GP7 being quite right with an Alco fleet.
OK I'll give you that one. But the CNJ probably had more than one of each manufacturer of engine.
Overmod Seems to me that a potential choice would be the T6 with road trucks: http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/3562/10.24.jpg If an end-cab short locomotive with higher horsepower and AAR type B trucks is desirable, one of the FM H20-44s would fit the bill. You could also probably re-truck one or more of the S4s with the "RS1" road trucks if you wanted the most 'parts and service compatibility'... in real life you'd need better transition control but that wouldn't show in a model.
Considering I don't recall having seen a commercial model of the wouldn'tT6, I don't think that idea would work.
Having the FM unit wouldn't solve the part problem.
The retruck idea wouldn't work as I don't know enough about the drives on the S-4s to work on them that way.
I'm pretty much sure I want the RS-1 and will shop the available options.
IIRC Alco went out of the locomotive business in 1969, so any actual Alco-built your line bought would be used. However, in Canada, their Montreal Locomotive Works subsidiary kept building engines and providing parts for about another decade or so. I believe Rapido makes several MLW engines.
Otherwise, Atlas makes several Alco models, including the RS-1 and RS-11. For a road engine, the higher power RS-11, or a newer Century series engine, might make more sense. If you want to go big, a C-628 from Stewart/Bowser would work, C&NW had good luck with the hi-hood C-628s they bought from Norfolk & Western in the 1970s.
"Retrucking" a model can be radically easier, if all you have to do is swap out and perhaps lightly kitbash the sideframes.
Part of the 'story' is how much horsepower the 'road' locomotives need. See the very interesting example of the Lehigh Valley 'pups' for another option.
FRRYKid OK Forum friends got another one I need some help with. I'm (preliminarily) thinking about buying another engine for my fictional shortline. It operates on part of the old CMStP&P PCE. In my version of events the PCE was embargoed in 1970 as a result of the BN merger and finances rather than in 1980 as in real history. (I model 72 to the BN-Frisco merger date.) The short line currently uses S-4 switchers for freight hauling. Management is thinking that a road unit might be a needed addition. To keep repairs simpler, another Alco unit is wanted. The question I have is which RS unit would be the most reasonable. (I'm not very knowledgable on Alco units.) Thank you as usual for any assistance that can be provided.
I'd choose the RS-11. Known to be more reliable than the RS3 at the time.
You model 1970-1972? With mergers creating changes in roster power to the class I's, it would have been possible to get an ex-NP RS11 from the new BN. The BN kept the NP RS11's and painted them BN Green, but its possible your shortline could have gotten one that BN supposedly did not want.
Atlas makes a good model: Offered in NP paint in the past that could possibly be found on the secondary market.
http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/arc-hors11.htm
They Made RS3's too, if you choose that route.
- Douglas
Atlas latest release RS1 model. to give you an idea of how it looks detail wise. I can give you an RS3 pic from Atlas latest run as well. onlyabout 3 years old.
SHane
Doughless I'd choose the RS-11. Known to be more reliable than the RS3 at the time. You model 1970-1972? With mergers creating changes in roster power to the class I's, it would have been possible to get an ex-NP RS11 from the new BN. The BN kept the NP RS11's and painted them BN Green, but its possible your shortline could have gotten one that BN supposedly did not want. Atlas makes a good model: Offered in NP paint in the past that could possibly be found on the secondary market. http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/arc-hors11.htm They Made RS3's too, if you choose that route.
Actually I model 72 to 80. I have an P1K RS11 in NP paint that I got from my Uncle when he gave me his collection. However, I just can't bear to paint it.
I have found a few Atlas yellow box RS1s that I'm looking at. I know those are good running units as the two S4s are yellow box units.
FRRYKidI have an P1K RS11 in NP paint that I got from my Uncle when he gave me his collection. However, I just can't bear to paint it.
When the BN merger happened, many of the engines just had a new BN number assigned with a small "BN" added, the rest remained the same. If the number of the NP engine works for your railroad, you could just use decals to add the initials / reporting marks of your free-lance road near the cab road number. On an engine or car, the reporting mark initials and road number are the official "name" of the engine, heralds and such are basically just decoration.
1BN_4184_Interbay_WA_2-9-76.jpg (800×600) (qstation.org)
FRRYKid Doughless I'd choose the RS-11. Known to be more reliable than the RS3 at the time. You model 1970-1972? With mergers creating changes in roster power to the class I's, it would have been possible to get an ex-NP RS11 from the new BN. The BN kept the NP RS11's and painted them BN Green, but its possible your shortline could have gotten one that BN supposedly did not want. Atlas makes a good model: Offered in NP paint in the past that could possibly be found on the secondary market. http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/arc-hors11.htm They Made RS3's too, if you choose that route. Actually I model 72 to 80. I have an P1K RS11 in NP paint that I got from my Uncle when he gave me his collection. However, I just can't bear to paint it. I have found a few Atlas yellow box RS1s that I'm looking at. I know those are good running units as the two S4s are yellow box units.
Perfect. I believe BN started scrapping their RS11's in late 1970's. Perhaps your shortline was allowed to buy the pick of the litter of BN green RS11s.
No need to stick with a yellow box version, which I think Atlas did paint for BN. The Atlas Classic version has updated shell details and is a better model. They show up once in a while on the Bay.
Walthers mainline is releasing RS2. There are different mechanical parts as the RS2 has the 12-244 power plant vs the S4 being 539t. of you are looking at it from a purchasing managers view. The price is right for a used one off the market. Prototype that is.
Another thought: If your Northern Pacific RS-11 runs well, if you're patient and search around a bit, you might be able to find an old Life-Like Proto RS-11 body shell for sale at a decent price. Ideally an undec one, so you could paint it for your free-lance road. That way you can keep the NP body shell as it is.
wjstix When the BN merger happened, many of the engines just had a new BN number assigned with a small "BN" added, the rest remained the same. If the number of the NP engine works for your railroad, you could just use decals to add the initials / reporting marks of your free-lance road near the cab road number. On an engine or car, the reporting mark initials and road number are the official "name" of the engine, heralds and such are basically just decoration. 1BN_4184_Interbay_WA_2-9-76.jpg (800×600) (qstation.org)
I model the BN as well so i have locos that are sublettered so that's not the problem. As to the other part, read the response to the next quote.
Doughless Perfect. I believe BN started scrapping their RS11's in late 1970's. Perhaps your shortline was allowed to buy the pick of the litter of BN green RS11s. No need to stick with a yellow box version, which I think Atlas did paint for BN. The Atlas Classic version has updated shell details and is a better model. They show up once in a while on the Bay.
Problem with that plan is that after the merger, all the Alcos went to either Washington state or to Minnesota as those areas had the most knowledge of them. I can't imagine they would have worked there way back.
As to the detail issue, I'm looking at budget. I'm also perfectly happy with the other two yellow box units I have.
FRRYKid wjstix When the BN merger happened, many of the engines just had a new BN number assigned with a small "BN" added, the rest remained the same. If the number of the NP engine works for your railroad, you could just use decals to add the initials / reporting marks of your free-lance road near the cab road number. On an engine or car, the reporting mark initials and road number are the official "name" of the engine, heralds and such are basically just decoration. 1BN_4184_Interbay_WA_2-9-76.jpg (800×600) (qstation.org) I model the BN as well so i have locos that are sublettered so that's not the problem. As to the other part, read the response to the next quote. Doughless Perfect. I believe BN started scrapping their RS11's in late 1970's. Perhaps your shortline was allowed to buy the pick of the litter of BN green RS11s. No need to stick with a yellow box version, which I think Atlas did paint for BN. The Atlas Classic version has updated shell details and is a better model. They show up once in a while on the Bay. Problem with that plan is that after the merger, all the Alcos went to either Washington state or to Minnesota as those areas had the most knowledge of them. I can't imagine they would have worked there way back. As to the detail issue, I'm looking at budget. I'm also perfectly happy with the other two yellow box units I have.
I wasn't considering adhering to strict BN history....afterall, they were all scrapped.
Although local paint schemes are more interesting for a shortline, shortlines buy locomotives from all over the country. It doesn't have to be running in the neighborhood.
I assume the BN made a corporate decision to remove the RS11s from service all over the system, so it would be no big deal to ship one to your railroad after its purchasing agent made a deal.
I only suggested the Atlas Classic version to open up your options, no need to stick to Yellow Box. RS11's in BN paint might not be easy to find.
The answer to your OP question might be based upon what is more easily available from ebay and other places, not necessarily specific paint schemes.
A BN RS3 or locos in NP paint...or any railroad that ran in the Pacific NW...or...any railroad anywhere in the country would probably work....because your purchasing agent is very competent in finding a loco for sale.
If budget and quick-find are the main goals, I'd say you could buy any RS diesel. There are plenty of opportunities to develop a plausible backstory.
But you were at some point considering a BL2 which is the same engine in different packaging?
And the GP20 is a successor to the GP7/9/18 models with an upgraded version of the 567 engine and turbocharger.
EMDs and ALCOs are entirely compatible to run together, so there's nothing restricting that other than your (very reasonable) thought of the shortline operating a consistent fleet from one builder for maintenance reasons.
The RS-3 or RS-11 would bascially be the ALCO equivalent of an EMD GP7 or GP9.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Since he's talking about 539T-compatible power and 'streetcar motors' why not have him purchase a DL109 with appropriate gearing?
The New Haven had one left in its sentimental-scrap collection that survived into the early '70s... he could obrain and 'rebuild' that. Put in a Draper taper back from the cab windows to make running it bidirectionally less of an 'exercise'...
I did end up purchasing the RS-1 I was looking at. It ending up going a bit higher than I had originally intended but I think I can come up with a reasonable scheme for it without a lot of repainting. The old roadname and number and the endrails to white from the existing yellow should be the only needs. It is a blue one and I think I can do a reasonable bicentennial scheme from that I will have to order more decals of course.