Signalling and Commuter Service

[UKRailroder]

Hello,

I am based in the UK so I don't have easy access to prototype information. I am starting the build of a new HO shelf layout and want to run a commuter service. Does this mean I have to have signals and remotely (by the Dispatcher) controlled switches?

I understand that under Direct Train Control switches can be released by the Dispatcher to be manually controlled by train crews switching industries and I can simulate this, but do I need signals?

If this is different for each railroad company then I am modelling the late 90's in ex Seaboard Coast Line territory.

Many Thanks,

Keith

[wjstix]

Except for stations and service areas, generally US 'heavy' commuter operations (i.e. not 'light rail' trains, which are more like streetcars / trams) use the tracks of one or more freight railroads, so how (or if) the line would be signalled would depend on what the freight railroad your commuter trains are running on do.

[BEAUSABRE]

I grew up on the Jersey Central's four track mainline in commuter territory. Two tracks each (inner express, outer local) were signalled for direction of travel (ie- no reverse running) either eastbound or westbound - which prevented rear end collisions. This is the eastbound home signal protecting Broad Street Station in Elizabeth. It has only two sets of signal heads as it only controls the two eastbound tracks. That's a Penn Central (ex-Pennsylvaia) TrailerTrain pulled by a pair of GG1's crossing over the CNJ. The Pennsy staion was next to the Jersey Central one and there was a  walkway between the two railroads for passengers changing trains (example - I could take the CNJ from my home town to Elizabeth and then take the PRR to Penn Station on 34th Street in Midtown Manhattan, rather than the CNJ ferry from Jersey City to Liberty Street downtown in the Financial District)

CNJ Signal rules Central Railroad of New Jersey Signal Rules (1974) (jovet.net)

Movement of trains between tracks was done at interlocking plants where the trackwork was controlled by a manually operated interlocking machine in a two story tower that set switches and signals.To the west of my home town was JA Tower in Plainfield, NJ and to the east was an interlocking in Westfield (WF) that was eventually remoted from Cranford (XC). 

Here is C tower and interlocking

 

 

"C" tower (JC)

Controlled all traffic in and out of Comunipaw station (Jersey City) and controlled all traffic on the Jersey City to Newark branch.

[wjstix]

My (limited) understanding of Direct Traffic Control is that it is kind of like train order operation, only the dispatcher uses radio to clear trains to enter a block. The blocks can have signals, but doesn't have to.

For what it's worth, DTC is also apparently fairly rare in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_traffic_control

 

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

to the forums.

Your first few posts will be moderated, so there will be a delay in viewing them.

"Keep Calm and Carry On!"

UKRailroder

Does this mean I have to have signals and remotely (by the Dispatcher) controlled switches?

Prototypically- -yes.

Actually?

Well, it depends...

There are volumes published on prototypical operations regarding North American operations and how to replicate them on a model railroad. 

How will you be wiring your pike?

Signals and block detection or simply running trains under your own jurisdiction?

What control system are you using- -DC, DCC, or Mfx (AC 3-rail)?

Are you a singular operator; with one cab (controller), or will you be inviting mates over for a go-round?

How are you planning on communicating with the other engineers (operators)?

Radio headsets, "Dog 'N Bone" (telephone), or another method- -just giving a shout-out?

I frequent the Colorado Model Rail Road Museum.

They use an automated system, with limited trains running, on days when volunteer engineers are not available.

When volunteer engineers are available they switch to a Centralized Train Control system (CTC) replete with a dispatcher and the ability to give localized control to individual engineers via radio headsets.

I suggest- -rather than concerning yourself with signaling- -consider how your pike will operate.

Hope this helps.

[dehusman]

wjstix

My (limited) understanding of Direct Traffic Control is that it is kind of like train order operation,

In DTC there are fixed blocks (with signs at the beginning and end) and dispatchers verbally assign authority to trains in those blocks.  "Extra 234 East has authority in three blocks, Bess, Cloy, Dora."  There can be ABS signals or it can be dark (unsignalled), doesn't change how DTC works (other than signals allow following moves).

If has nothing to do with train orders, a completely different system.  

[dehusman]

UKRailroder

I am based in the UK so I don't have easy access to prototype information. I am starting the build of a new HO shelf layout and want to run a commuter service. Does this mean I have to have signals and remotely (by the Dispatcher) controlled switches?

Welcome to the forum.  

Generally commuter operations means heavy enough passenger operations that the railroad has signals.  There are several common signal arrangements.

Single track ABS :  all the signals are automatic (not manually controlled by dispatcher or operator) and the switches are hand operated.

Double track, current of traffic ABS :  two tracks, each track is only signalled in one direction, with the current of traffic,  all the signals are automatic (not manually controlled by dispatcher or operator) and the switches are hand operated.  There will be interlockings at junctions and major crossover points.

Interlockings :  Used at major junctions, yard /station throats, railroad crossings at grade, major corossover points.  All tracks signaled in both directions, switches are manually controlled by the dispatcher or operator, rarely able to be hand operated by the crews.

CTC :  Tracks are signaled in both directions and major switches can either be controlled by the dispatcher or hand operated by the crews.

UKRailroder

I understand that under Direct Train Control switches can be released by the Dispatcher to be manually controlled by train crews switching industries and I can simulate this, but do I need signals?

DTC is something different.  In the DTC I am familiar with all the switches are manual.  If the dispatcher is operating the switches it's probably CTC (centralized Traffic Control) or an interlocking, not DTC. DTC can have signals (ABS) or not, doesn't really change how things operate.

UKRailroder

If this is different for each railroad company then I am modelling the late 90's in ex Seaboard Coast Line territory.

What signaling system was in place and the specific rules vary a bit between railroads.  I don't know if there was any commuter traffic on the SCL by the 1990's.  Maybe some of the lines in Florida.  They would be covered by CSX rules.

[UKRailroder]

Many Thanks for the information, I have often looked at NYC commuter lines with interest, in particular the north east corridor. The link to the CNJ signalling rules is great and has helped me understand the meaning of different aspects, as here in the UK the displayed aspects are much simpler (red, amber, double amber, green).

Cheers,

Keith

[UKRailroder]

Thanks for the info on DTC, hadn't realised it was rarely used. It is increasing in the UK on rural lines but we call it Electronic Token Block.

Keith

[UKRailroder]

Thank you for the info and some good thought-provoking questions. It's not a large pike, in an 8X16 room point to point. HO scale, 2-rail. DC or DCC, well I am still debating (have used both in the past). I will mostly operate alone although my son joins me from time to time and we generally operate as a crew (one driver and one conductor).

I will work through the options.

Keith

[UKRailroder]

Many Thanks for the great information, it has helped me understand US signalling systems better. Here in the UK we only have one system.  Looks like single track ABS would be the best option.

Cheers,

Keith

[wjstix]

dehusman

wjstix

My (limited) understanding of Direct Traffic Control is that it is kind of like train order operation,

 

 

In DTC there are fixed blocks (with signs at the beginning and end) and dispatchers verbally assign authority to trains in those blocks.  "Extra 234 East has authority in three blocks, Bess, Cloy, Dora."  There can be ABS signals or it can be dark (unsignalled), doesn't change how DTC works (other than signals allow following moves).

If has nothing to do with train orders, a completely different system.  

 

"Direct traffic control (DTC) is a system for authorizing track occupancy used on some railroads instead of or in addition to signals. It is known as "direct" traffic control because the train dispatcher gives track authority directly to the train crew via radio, as opposed to through wayside personnel via telephone or telegraph, as in train orders."

 Direct traffic control - Wikipedia

 

What I was saying, based on this, was that in DTC, it appears the dispatcher uses radio to contact the train crew to give them clearance to enter a block etc. directly, unlike traditional train order operation where orders are picked up by the crew from personnel at a station. Either system can be operated without signals, unlike CTC or an ABS system.