I recently picked up a Quality Craft Models craftsman kit of the following 61'-9" 130-ton well hole flat car:
This particular car was produced in 1951 for the NYC and was the only one in the lot (809-F). What I have not been able to find out is what was actually transported on it.
All the photos that I have seen so far only show the car (or these types of cars) with an empty load. Earlier versions (ca. 1910s) carried generator armatures and turbine shafts. I'd like to know what this car would have transported in '51.
Thanks for any help you might be able to offer...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
They carried extra high loads such as transformers which would have been to high on a regular flat car to pass through a tunnel. By lowering the load they would be able to pass through safely.
Ira
One reference I have shows a similar car, NYC 499075 carrying what look to be the ring bearings for a large crane or dragline from an Allis-Chalmers plant in Columbus Ohio. There's a photo in the Color Guide to NYC Freight & Passenger Cars V.II.
I have seen photos of ship's screws mounted on well flats, too.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/1d6164d3ff8dc173_large
Regards, Ed
caldreamerThey carried extra high loads such as transformers which would have been to high on a regular flat car to pass through a tunnel. By lowering the load they would be able to pass through safely. Ira
My understanding was that transformers were transported on heavier 4-truck flat cars like the following:
tstageMy understanding was that transformers were transported on heavier 4-truck flat cars like the following:
Most of the transformers I've seen are too wide to sit 'into' a well car.
Ed
Thanks for confirming that, Ed. I have the NYC Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment (Vol 1). I guess I'll have to get Vol. 2 at some point.
[Edit: Just picked it up on Amazon w/free shipping. ]
tstageEdit: Just picked it up on Amazon w/free shipping.
Good call, Tom. You won't be disappointed.
Some interesting views of large flat car loads here:
http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2017/12/flat-freight-cars.html
Not too many 'well' cars, though. Look for the 'flat car on flat car' load (a big, green depressed-center framework).
Cheers, Ed
Thanks, Ed. This looks like a candidate...
Was the well removable on the prototype; hence the term "well hole"?
tstageThis looks like a candidate...
I love anything that came out of the Mesta Machine Works
Years ago an outfit (Selly, maybe?) made a popular soft-metal casting of a gear and it included the supporting timbers. More recently Life-Like made some pretty neat gears that might be a contender for a well car load:
PRR_F33w-L-L Gear pkg by Edmund, on Flickr
PRR_F33w-L-L Gear by Edmund, on Flickr
My only well car is an F&C kit from that other railroad. I intend to use this MESTA rolling mill stand as a load in it. I think I'm going to make it look used as if it is being moved to another facility.
PRR_F33w-MESTA stand by Edmund, on Flickr
PRR_F33w-MESTA stand-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
These were 3D printed from one of the Shapeways people.
tstageWas the well removable on the prototype; hence the term "well hole"?
As in the bottom plating? It is possible but I haven't seen any evidence of it. Of course there were specialized cars and some modified for a one-time-only move. The only 'customizable' cars I'm aware of were the PRR FD1 and FW1 which shared the same truck and bolster assemblies but could use either of a well or depressed-center mid-section.
Speaking of flat car loads I recently completed loading a pair of Kewanee boilers onto a Pennsy F30 flat car.
Kewanee on F30a by Edmund, on Flickr
Flat cars make for some interesting visuals on the layout.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Well hole cars carry narrow tall objects: gears, coating wheels, machinery, fabricated or cast frames, complex piping, etc. Large lenses were shipped in well hole cars.
Some wells were solid, some wells had removeable planking, some had other support systems in the bottom, some were just open. It varies by the car design and owner's requirements.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
gmpullman tstage Was the well removable on the prototype; hence the term "well hole"? As in the bottom plating? It is possible but I haven't seen any evidence of it.
tstage Was the well removable on the prototype; hence the term "well hole"?
As in the bottom plating? It is possible but I haven't seen any evidence of it.
Ed,
I was surmising it from the previous photo I posted showing the gear noticeably protruding out the bottom of the flat car. Dave's post & Bear's links now seem to confirm that was possible.
I also just noticed in my posted photo of NYC #499086 that there is wood planking in the bottom of the well. I guess that could have been there for either opening up the bottom...or to protect the bottom of the well - like the wood decking on a regular flat car. Duh! It would also be used for mounting support mechanisms and/or rigging to stabilize a given load - like the gears in your first photo.
Tom: I bought a big gear for the load in my brass well car. It was 3D printed by Multiscale Digital Productions.
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
They provided this reference photograph of the prototype load.
I think the load is actually a geared winding pulley for wire rope. Probably for a large crane, but not certain.
gmpullmanYears ago an outfit (Selly, maybe?) made a popular soft-metal casting of a gear and it included the supporting timbers. More recently Life-Like made some pretty neat gears that might be a contender for a well car load:
Both Selley and Stewart made cast metal gear loads, and Chooch made a resin cast load that was similar.
Honestly, I think the Scene-Master (Life-Like/Walthers) are the best of the group. The moldings and pieces are much cleaner and more precise.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Thank you for the good information, gentlemen!
I was reminded on a Groups.io forum that the Corning 200" Pyrex disc was transported by rail to CA in '36 to be used as a mirror to outfit a new telescope at the Palomar Observatory. A NYC Lot 273-F well hole flat car (#499010) was used to haul the mirror, as seen in the photos below:
The 1st failed attempt by Corning to cast the glass disc can be seen displayed in the lobby of the Corning Museum of Glass, in Corning, NY. I remember seeing it in-person when my wife & I visited the museum back in '98. Quite impressive.
For anyone interested...the uncrated mirror...
That telescope would go on to be the largest in the world for almost 30 years. It is still on the huge side, although the bigger monolithic mirrors are enormous by comparison now. Subaru is 323 inches across. Doesn't sound like much difference until you work out that 200 inches is 218 square feet and and 323 inches is 570 square feet.
Note that for both the gear/reel and mirror there is no need for a bottom in the well. Neither load is supported by the bottom, the gear/reel is supported on the side of the car by the center pivot and the mirror is supported fore and aft by the casing of the mirror. These types of arrangements were actually quite common.
NittanyLionThat telescope would go on to be the largest in the world for almost 30 years.
The Corning Museum of Glass website (where I got the posted photos from) states that the Palomar telescope was the largest until 1993. Once received, it took Cal Tech's optical department 13 years to polish the mirror, which was finally installed in 1948. Progress was slowed due to the US involvement in WWII.
For your flat cars and gondolas -add bracing and tie downs. Maybe paint orange, black or zinc chromate.
From TEMU online "50 Pieces Of Alloy Mechanical Punk Style Steam Gear" for a mere US $2.24. How can you go wrong at that price?
Hello All,
These cars were known as General Steel Castings 60-Ton Well Cars, produced by...you guessed it...General Steel Castings.
Not to be confused with modern intermodal well cars or depressed center flat cars; which came in many truck and wheel configurations.
These seem to be rare in HO.
So rare I scratch-built one for my pike.
Eastern Seaboard Models offers these in N scale RTR; #2100 - GSC 60-Ton Well Car.
Prototypically, many manufacturers of oversized, and odd-shaped loads, constructed or contracted one-of-a-kind cars for the transportation of single-service loads.
Afterward, some were stored on a siding never to be used again, some repurposed for the next "special assignment" or scrapped because of the unique nature of the cargo- -one and done.
In Tstage's fourth (4th) post this car seems to be an example of a one-of-a-kind build.
The frame of the car looks to be constructed of common "I" beans with bolsters riveted to the side frames.
Coupler gearboxes could also be riveted or welded to the makeshift frame.
Brake rigging could be easily added due to the open nature of the structure.
No heavy lifting needed when putting in place.
Roll the car and load into place. Jack up the car, and remove the trucks, rails, and ties.
Lower the load in place then cut the frame of the "I" beams, and cart off for scrap.
I have scratch-built several "skeleton" cars to act as idler cars for long loads, similar to a skeleton logging car.
As far as loads for these cars go- -yes, they need to be narrow enough to fit in the well.
I bought both the geared and non-geared large cable reels for my well car.
These loads, and their blocking, can be removed for empty running or switching out the loads.
I also have a laser-cut conveyor belt load from Precision Design Co (#1603). (Discontinued).
It's a hexagon-shaped spool with a faux conveyor belt.
With a little modification of the width, it fits between the walls of the GSC well car.
For other oversized loads, I utilize one of many in my fleet of depressed center flatcars.
These loads are from various commercial manufacturers and kit-bashed/scratch-built from found objects.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnitThese unique cars were known as General Steel Castings 60-ton well cars, produced by...General Steel Castings.
The New York Central had their own carbuilding operation known as Despatch Shops located just east of Rochester, NY. NYC also built some flat cars in Beech Grove, Indiana and Ashtabula, Ohio. Some of NYC's more common flats were built by Pullman-Standard and General American (GATX).
It would appear Tom's model was built by Greenville Steel Car Co. in Greenville, Penna.
A Quartz mirror blank was loaded on to a flat car at the General Electric plant where I was employed.
Kitt Peak quartz mirror blank by Edmund, on Flickr
Mirror Blank by Edmund, on Flickr
Miss_Quartz by Edmund, on Flickr
The blank was manufactured in Willoughby, Ohio and our plant made the protective cover in Euclid, Ohio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_U._Mayall_Telescope
The nomenclature of the 'well' compartment is perhaps a 'well flat' car has a floor in the bottom of the cavity whereas a 'well hole flat' has an open bottom as some photos depict. The AAR designation makes no distinction other than to class it as an FW as opposed to an FM which is an ordinary flat car.
My next pair of HO depressed center flat cars will be coming from Class One Model Works. Looking forward to it!
https://classonemodelworks.com/product-category/model-type/flat-cars/
Thank you, Ed
gmpullmanMy next pair of HO depressed center flat cars will be coming from Class One Model Works. Looking forward to it! https://classonemodelworks.com/product-category/model-type/flat-cars/ Thank you, Ed
Thanks for that link, Ed! Pre-ordered an Erie flatcar - the only one in my era. No bother cause I like the Erie.
tstagePre-ordered an Erie flatcar - the only one in my era.
I, too, ordered an Erie but I also wanted a Conrail (sometimes I'm in the mood to run some 'modern' (1976) stuff. Mainly because the Conrail car has the open grating which I think looks pretty neat on a model .
Here's a page from the January 1954 ORER showing the NYC heavy duty and specialty flat car roster:
ORER 1-54 NYCa by Edmund, on Flickr
ORER 1-54 NYC-2a by Edmund, on Flickr
Note that cars that have no floor in the well are notated as 'Open Pit'. Note 'D' states that the car can not be operated in third-rail territory. Also see Note J for loading of the well floor:
ORER_notes by Edmund, on Flickr
GE Schenectady was a good customer for NYC flat car traffic. Turbine parts and some transformers plus large machinery.
This site has some interesting information on GE Pittsfield Large Transformer Works:
https://ethw.org/Archives:Transformers_at_Pittsfield,_part_1
There are some interesting views of transformers on flat cars.
If interested be sure to look at parts II and III, too.
Thanks for the flat car roster info, Ed. Very informative!
So #499010 that transported the Corning telescope disc was built as an open pit well hole flat car. That likely means that #499086 was not designed to be converted to an open pit car.
tstageThat likely means that #499086 was not designed to be converted to an open pit car.
I'm not quite following where this 'convertable' well car is coming from? In my understanding they were built with floors in the bottom of the well, or not.
Maybe there's an example of a convertible car out there. I haven't seen one other than the aforementioned PRR 'Queen Mary' FW or FD design.
Of course there are specialty loads that require a one-time-only arrangement of spreaders and blocking and, of course the Schnabel-type cars where the load becomes part of the superstructure of the 'car' but these are the exception more than the rule.
For my fellow SPF's (Slobberin' Pennsy Freaks) out there here is a list of PRR flatcar classes including heavy duty types with descriptions from PRR Flat Car diagrams (railfan.net) Betwee the Pittsburgh steel industry, PPG and Westinghouse, the Pennsy had a huge specialty flat fleet. Note - Gun Trucks are cars for hauling heavy ordnance (Bethlehem and Midvale Steel companies supplied guns world wide) Plate Cars and Plate Glass Cars - For hauling large sheets of plate glass
PRR Flat Car diagrams (railfan.net)
If you go to the site and click on the class you will get detailed information
gmpullmanMaybe there's an example of a convertible car out there. I haven't seen one other than the aforementioned PRR 'Queen Mary' FW or FD design.
Along with the PRR Class F49 depressed well cars, it was probably the earlier statement by Dave about well cars with "removable planking" that led me to conclude whether this feature was also available on similar well hole flat cars. This is all new territory for me.
I don't have my book available right now. I do know that the PRR built well hole flats without a floor in the well. There were strict instructions on supporting the load to the flat end platforms and not the side beams. There was also a class that had a removable well floor but still had beams under the removed floor. There was also a class ( small in number) that was built for a particular Westinghouse transformer when the electric grid was expanding at a fast pace. Some of the cars were dedicated to the Hoover dam project for the transformers used there. Some of the well cars used 3 and 4 axle trucks from retired tenders.
The flat car book from the PRRT&HS has loads of information and pictures of the well cars and drop decks. Along with a chapter dedicated to the FW1 and it's sister deck making it the FD2.
Pete.
tstage NittanyLion That telescope would go on to be the largest in the world for almost 30 years. The Corning Museum of Glass website (where I got the posted photos from) states that the Palomar telescope was the largest until 1993. Once received, it took Cal Tech's optical department 13 years to polish the mirror, which was finally installed in 1948. Progress was slowed due to the US involvement in WWII. Tom
NittanyLion That telescope would go on to be the largest in the world for almost 30 years.
It seems they caveat it by saying "effective." There was a somewhat larger 238 inch Soviet telescope built in the 1970s, but the first two mirrors were fatally flawed and the third and final mirror is of quite poor quality. It works, not nearly as well as it should for the size. It is notable mainly for the size than anything else. Which sounds incredibly Soviet for some reason.