I love locomotives. Especially the big steamers.
My layout is Southern Pacific. I've read the merger pages etc.
What could I reasonably run on my tracks? They are set in the LA/Santa Barbara/ surfsider regions. The transition era. (I loved the colours of the Daylight when I first got into the hobby- well I still do)
Did any other lines have trackage rights and share those rails?
And particularly, did any other lines run excursions or demonstration/ move equipment on those rails? I'm thinking of events like the Chicago World's fair where they had locomotives from many places on display- they had to get there somehow.
Anybody that could link a Big boy, a N&W Y6b, or especially an A4 Mallard to my track would be heros. Even if the logic is weak.
Thank you
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I agree with Bear - no mental exercises necessary.
I'm a freelance modeler, or maybe better a "protolance modeler".
I model my fictitious ATLANTIC CENTRAL RAILROAD along with the B&O, C&O, and WESTERN MARYLAND in an alternate version of 1954 here in the Mid Atantic region.
My solution is simple - in 56 years in this hobby, I've never purchased a locomotive that does not fit the theme and era of the layout, at least in that a few can be justified as museum pieces.
I have never owned a model of a Big Boy, and never really been temped to buy one.
Sheldon
I think I started out as a protolancer but even this much of a lie has been impossible to maintain. Just a lancer now.
There is a nonzero chance that trains running on my layout could concievably at certain times resemble operations of the Northern Pacific, Great Northern, or Spokane, Portland and Seattle in some of their parts or as a whole.
By the way, you cannot say that on here, even with asterisks, because this place is full of children. Some of them are in their 80s!
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
I don't model per se. I make up four seasons of scenery, one in each corner of the layout, and I paint backdrops to match (no, I'm not a painter, nor an artist, but what I produce helps to situate the rails). I run whatever the aitch ee double hockey sticks I want. I rarely mix roads, but my inventory has a reasonable smattering of things NYC, N&W, C&O, PRR, AT&SF, UP, and CPR. When I get tired of whatever trains I'm running, I box it all up and take out another 'string'. Those will probably sit on the rails for close to a year because I run trains so seldom. But, their time will come when it's back-into-the-cupboard-you-go, and I pull out yet another road's holdings. This keeps my train enjoyment fresh, even if in rotation only, and nothing gets run so much that it is soon relegated to a shelf queen status, or to the junk box.
Los Angeles-Santa Barbara in the transition era?
ATSF, UP, SP, SSW, SD&AE.
Big Boy, on the UP yes. Y6b nope. A4 Mallard nope.
No other railroad is going to get to Chicago via LA.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
In the LAUPT district you would also see UP and AT&SF, but not once you got a few miles north of there toward Santa Barbara.
I don't know much about Southern Pacific and what kind of trackage rights they had or granted, or what shared trackage they had with other railroads (I do seem to recall some shared trackage with the Texas & Pacific) but in general, the steam era and the transition era in general rarely saw foreign power, much less the "primo" foreign power that the owning railroad probably had very good uses and needs for. Compare that to today's diesel era where foreign power is seen all the time. Including heritage units!
Ironically the Southern Pacific figures in one famous exception - the 1922 Prosperity Special when an entire train of twenty SP 2-10-2s left the Baldwin plant pulled by a Pennsylvania RR steam locomotive. In St Louis the Cotton Belt took over. And Baldwin steam locomotives had to get to their purchasing railroad somehow, so the Pennsylvania Railroad probably hauled all manner of interesting steam locos to the ultimate owner. I am sure ALCO and Lima were served by railroads that similarly saw interesting foreign power being hauled to the new owner. Trains Magazine published a book about the UP Big Boy that talked about the rouring of these massive locomotives to the UP for delivery.
But the SP did not serve a major locomotive builder.
During WW2 there were locomotive shortages on many railroads and C&NW 2-8-2s and N&W 2-8-8-2s were seen on a number of competing railroads. But I am not aware of the SP doing any such borrowing. And in most cases as soon as the wartime need was over those locomotives were returned or sold or scrapped.
In an earlier era of railroad consolidation you'd see a mix of the power from the acquired railroad, and the SP and Cotton Belt probably did some sharing of that sort, but again not sharing of the "famous" foreign power that you seek to run.
The only other exception that comes to mind is when large public expositions such as Worlds Fairs and such would involve foreign power on host railroads. That is the one instance that comes to mind where "famous" foreign locomotives might well be seen. But I am not aware of any such expositions or fairs served by the SP during the transition era.
So when all the smoke is cleared -- your basis for running such interesting foreign power is because you want to run such interesting foreign power, and railroad history and the facts aren't going to lend you an helping hand.
Dave Nelson
Thank you. I know I'm playing with fire when I'm talking to prototype experts.
As I said, I'm just looking for a reason. Maybe something I could build a train around? Like the ones that presumably went to the different world fairs.
That being said, I own a beautiful DRG Class 05. Because I liked it. It looks way cool. And was, what, the third fastest locomotive ever built? (now I'm in trouble).
Thanks guys. Especially Dave. That was very helpful
During WW2 some PRR 2-8-2's and a couple N&W 2-8-82's (I think) were assigned to the ATSF but they were returned scrapped by the end of WW2 and probably didn't make it to California. The problem with eastern engines is they were coal fired and the vast majority of the engines west of the Rockies were oil fired. Nobody wants a coal fired engine in LA because there aren't any coal bunkers to fuel it.
In the transition era there were very few run through operations so foreign power running off it's home road significant distances was rare. Fast forward 50 years and engines were going all over the place. But not during the trainsition era and not with steam. You don't get steam specials until the 1960's-1980's
In 1972 or so the Flying Scotsman toured the US and went to San Francisco, but not to LA. There is sorta an example (the tour went broke and the engine was stranded in the US for several months until the creditors could be paid off.)
I met Al Saez in Durango. He was the SP's photographer and he had a garage full of 11x14 photos that he took to train shows. I looked on Ebay and didn't see any. I don't believe he is still with us. Don't know what happened to those boxes of photos.
He was also the Saez in Saez Shash and Door, which was produced in Durango. If you are interested in SP you might set up an Ebay search for his pics.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
dehusman During WW2 some PRR 2-8-2's and a couple N&W 2-8-82's (I think) were assigned to the ATSF but they were returned scrapped by the end of WW2 and probably didn't make it to California. The problem with eastern engines is they were coal fired and the vast majority of the engines west of the Rockies were oil fired. Nobody wants a coal fired engine in LA because there aren't any coal bunkers to fuel it.
Indeed, in 1943 the Santa Fe bought 8 N&W class Y-3 2-8-8-2s. They were stationed in Trinidad and Raton and, to the best of my knowledge, used exclusively as helpers on the Raton Pass, never catching a flimpse of California. After WWII, 7 of them were sold to the Virginian (where they remained in service until 1954/55), the last one was scrapped.
JW
Not sure what you consider the transition era, but there were diesels in the late 1930s. There was an exposition fair in the SF Bay area in 1939-40. However AT&SF had their own LA-SF line.
Your chosen area between LA and Santa Barbara was impacted by a July 21, 1952 earthquake. This quake hit the area around Tehachapi, knocking out portions of that regions shared S.P./Santa Fe track for about 3 weeks. Santa Fe trains were instead routed on Espee trackage from the LA area up to Northern California (and return) via the Coast route (through Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo & Salinas) until the damage in the Tehachapi area was fixed. Books about the Espee Coast Line usually mention it, and may show a few pictures. One book I have shows a photo of some Sante Fe diesels (F units) sitting near the San Luis Obispo station, awaiting their next assignment.
You could use this event as a possible reason to run foreign power in your modeled area around Santa Barbara.
Hope this helps,
Jeff
CanadaDavidAnybody that could link a Big boy, a N&W Y6b, or especially an A4 Mallard to my track would be heros.
OK, so you model a Southern Pacific line in California, already own a streamlined steam engine built for the Deutsche Reichsbahn, and want to find a plausible way to add a Union Pacific 4-8-8-4, N&W 2-8-8-2, and a streamlined London & North Eastern 4-6-2 to the layout.
I don't think you can.
I would say you have two options:
1. (Re)build the layout to have "generic' scenery that could be anywhere - trees, grass, rolling hills, etc.. Maybe with removeable station and engine service buildings so you can change them to another railroad (or another country's railroad) when you want. Then you can run your variety of equipment with at least some plausibility...though not all at the same time.
2. Keep modeling the SP in California, but look for similar items to what you want that really were on the SP, or at least ran on railroads in California. SP had several classes of big Mallets similar to the N&W engines, why not model one or two of them? Lot easier to explain an SP 'cab-ahead' running on an SP line in California than an N&W engine 3000 miles from home. Southern Pacific had beautiful streamlined steam engines, why not run one of them instead of the foreign streamlined power? Can't get much classier than a "Daylight" 4-8-4.
CanadaDavidI'm just looking for a reason. Maybe something I could build a train around? Like the ones that presumably went to the different world fairs.
A vast range of steam power had 'oil conversions' designed for rapid implementation in the latter 1940s (it was related to a threatened coal strike, addressed at the eleventh hour by Truman after the usual grandstanding). Conversion drawings for, say, the N&W A 2-6-6-4s and J 4-8-4s exist in the NWHS collection.
That Mallard would come to be displayed at, say, the Chicago Railroad Fair in 1947 (as "the fastest locomotive in the world") and subsequent tour and perhaps an updated AAR comparison testing with fast American road power would make some sense. Britain was in great need of dollar credit for postwar recovery -- in fact, was planning on their own oil-firing conversion but had to stick with sterling (something that played no small part in the failure of the Leader class!) so a certain amount of dollar contributions but British spares and repairs might have been highly advantageous.
As you know, the Roosen motor locomotive 19.1001 (tested to speeds over 110mph equivalent) was brought back as war booty (and shamefully cut up in a fit of Korean War political expediency) and in fact at one point had a beautifully-stenciled ACL herald on her streamlined nose. It takes little stretch to imagine one of the 05 class brought over, although there were few railroads in the West that had suitable track to take advantage of drivers higher than 90", three cylinders or no. This might have been put on the east end of ATSF, handing over to the 6-4-4-4 duplexes at some logical point -- had diesels not panned fully out.
...beautiful DRG Class 05, the third fastest locomotive ever built? (now I'm in trouble).
The only use for a Big Boy I can see would be where the AC-9s ran. Certainly if you wanted to convert to oil firing, one has been conclusively demonstrated to work, and work well. In my opinion some of the burner testing SP did would have evolved something at least the equal of the Dickens-Barker on those locomotives. But of course UP wouldn't have sold, and probably wouldn't have leased, them to the competition until long after diesel power was in the ascendant...
... on the other hand, who would predict ATSF 2-10-4s running regularly on a fairly small branch line to Sandusky as late as the mid-Fifties?
That was truly awesome!!!! Wikipedia is fine, but is no match for an expert. I've spent at least 6 years on this layout, and probably way more time googling about it than building. I have never heard of the impact of That earthquake. Brilliant.
im not aiming for perfect. i am a geek, so enjoy some parts like looking at old photos, making measurements from "known" dimensions (I have an acquaintance at the Alexandria library who is an architect- His project was a 3D map of Alexandria's city Center in tge old days. Most of tge structures are now gone, but he told me of how he was doing it. Model Ts are 5' tall. From there, with geometry and trigonometry you can learn a lot). I like that kind of thing. I don't have much that's exactly protypical, but I aim to reproduce some features. Like the surfsider line along the beach. There are various buildings above there. I'm not worrying about them. I want to put in modernist houses of the 50's. Probably no exact copies of a known building, but lots of what I remember of the glamour days of LA from the movies.
as they say it's my railroad and I doubt I'd ever show it to more than some family amd friends. I guess the only thing that matters are the things that are important to me about it.
CanadaDavidI love locomotives. Especially the big steamers. My layout is Southern Pacific. I've read the merger pages etc. What could I reasonably run on my tracks?
I can't see any reason to worry about what you run on your own layout...if you want big steam locomotives from a variety of the models that are available, buy 'em, and enjoy yourself.
I don't know how much room you have for a layout, but do keep in mind the fact that big locomotives do require some broad curves, and a fairly large collection of rolling stock to make it look like those big locomotives are actually needed. Running a train around your layout with only 10 or 20 cars, tacked onto a really big locomotive isn't going to look very convincing.
My freelanced layout has some models which do match some prototypes (and are painted and lettered to match the real ones), but I also have a bunch on my layout that are totally freelanced, with made-up roadnames, and in many cases, with lots of matching rolling stock...it's my layout, and my way or the highway.
I'd suggest that you buy the locos that you want, and use them the way you want, too. I wouldn't worry too much about how your layout has to match the scenery that would be appropriate for each of those specific big locomotives that you'll be running...enjoy the hobby and when necessary, adjust things to suit your needs.
My layout is somewhat like the flip-side of what you're seeking...I'm not overly interested in big locomotives, but am much more interested in rolling stock that's based on real railroads from all over North America (which does include Mexico), and that side of the coin is based on the extremely wide range of rolling stock that I've witnessed from my very young years, all the way up to present-day train watching.
Of course, nowadays, there are much fewer railroads (many amalgamated with others, of course), and locomotives from pretty-well anywhere could show-up in our hometowns.
Enjoy the hobby...that's what it's here for.
Wayne
groundeffectsYour chosen area between LA and Santa Barbara was impacted by a July 21, 1952 earthquake. This quake hit the area around Tehachapi, knocking out portions of that regions shared S.P./Santa Fe track for about 3 weeks. Santa Fe trains were instead routed on Espee trackage from the LA area up to Northern California (and return) via the Coast route (through Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo & Salinas) until the damage in the Tehachapi area was fixed.
Someone here (probably Ed) will remember the classes of ATSF power that were not permitted on Cajon Pass -- due nominally to wheelbase and lateral reasons. It would be highly interesting to have a SP 'specialist' review track charts and see how much of the 'bypass' route would have been limited to specific classes of ATSF big power...
Even though I don't have any of those large ESPEE steam locomotives, I do have at least 4 or 5 Southern Pacific boxcars, and over a half-dozen SP/UP refrigerator cars, too...
Just paint your A4 Mallard in SP Daylight colors and run it with some matching SP passenger cars.
IIRC, IHC made some GG1's in SP Daylight colors.
I think the Toy Train guys have it right - just run whatever pleases you.
Paul
IRONROOSTERJust paint your A4 Mallard in SP Daylight colors and run it with some matching SP passenger cars.
ENOUGH !!! I'm reporting all of you to the Prototype Police !
Rivet counters are out of luck when you have full-welded construction.