Given a single stall, wooden engine house of the steam era where there is no turntable (maybe a nearby wye), was there a proper way to drive a locomotive into the shop -- always forward in and backing out, or tender first and driving out for'ard? Or was it engineer's choice? Or did each road have its own policy?
Thanks,
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Roundhouses had the engines enter with the tender towards the turn table, that put the valve gear and cyclinders, the stuff they needed to work on the most at the wide end of the stall with the most room.
With a square engine house that doesn't matter since the stall is the same width.
Easy answer. Look at the roof. Where is the smoke jack? Normally there is a vent or smoke jack at one end, that is where the smokestack of the engine goes, under that, to vent the smoke from the engine.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
crossthedog ...always forward in and backing out...
...that's what I've been told, and as far as I'm aware, that's why the smokejacks are near the back of the roof on the roundhouse...
...and the smoke collector hoods are immediately beneath the smokejacks. I also recall that the hinged smokebox-fronts can be opened, so that the cinders can be shovelled-out...probably into wheelbarrows, as there's more room at the back of a roundhouse than there is at the doors.
I have a friend who parks his locos in the roundhouse with all of them facing outward at the doors, simply because the front ends are more interesting than the back-ends of a tender.
Wayne
Well, I have wondered the same thing.
So, I just did an image search on Google for HO Scale Single Stall Engine House, and I am now so confused.
Some had the smokejack on the same side as the door, some opposite, some both, and some had no smokejack. One model had four smokejacks along the roof.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
dehusmanEasy answer. Look at the roof. Where is the smoke jack? Normally there is a vent or smoke jack at one end
The teenager who build this shed back in the late 1970s modelled it after something he saw in an issue of MR, probably, or in the Walthers catalog. If there was a smoke jack, he neglected to include it. I'll have to have a serious talk with him about that. But I suppose the middle vent would enable ambidirectional entry?
Oh, and look, there's ol' one-handed Clem. He got to showing off while greasing the boxes on a rolling train one day and fell under a boxcar and lost that left hand. Still, he can climb a ladder using just his right. Everybody loves Clem, even though he swears like a fish.
In regards to the roundhouse orientation with the pilot toward the outside wall, those tall windows were another reason the "business end" of the locomotive went in front first. The windows provided plenty of light, at least for the second trick shop men.
In the roundhouse at a Chicago and Northwestern Railroad yard, Chicago, Ill. (LOC) by The Library of Congress, on Flickr
spencer 183 by Todd Dillon, on Flickr
As far as the little wooden shed goes, I doubt an engine would have been placed in there with a live fire. The fire would have been dropped in the ash pit and the engine run in under residual steam pressure.
When the time came to put a new fire in her the engine would have been pulled out past the doors so the smoke and cinders would be free to escape. OR there would have been a smoke jack installed.
Roundhouse-jack by Edmund, on Flickr
The little cupola on the roof would have provided some ventilation and relief from the heat of the boiler but wouldn't handle much in the way of smoke and ash.
Sectional Elevation of Ashtabula Engine House by Ashtabula Archive, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanThe little cupola on the roof would have provided some ventilation and relief from the heat of the boiler but wouldn't handle much in the way of smoke and ash.
gmpullmanAs far as the little wooden shed goes, I doubt an engine would have been placed in there with a live fire. The fire would have been dropped in the ash pit and the engine run in under residual steam pressure.
gmpullmanWhen the time came to put a new fire in her the engine would have been pulled out past the doors so the smoke and cinders would be free to escape. OR there would have been a smoke jack installed.
Could a small donkey steam engine be permanently located off to the side of the front of the shed to pull the locomotive out? There would have to be a way to straighten the cables since it would be pulling obliquely. I'm just spitballin' here...
crossthedogCould a small donkey steam engine be permanently located off to the side of the front of the shed to pull the locomotive out?
The prairie grain elevators have winches to pull the cars to be loaded along, I don't see why a similar thing could not be used for your situation.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
crossthedogBut if it takes another engine posted locally just to pull the first one out of the shed every morning, that's not very efficient.
The current era prototypes with steam locos, UP for example, sometimes have those engines in a structure of some type to work on them.
How do they manage to get the engines in and out?
maxman crossthedog But if it takes another engine posted locally just to pull the first one out of the shed every morning, that's not very efficient. The current era prototypes with steam locos, UP for example, sometimes have those engines in a structure of some type to work on them. How do they manage to get the engines in and out?
crossthedog But if it takes another engine posted locally just to pull the first one out of the shed every morning, that's not very efficient.
Didn't roundhouses and garden tracks, then and now, have a boiler house that could pump enough steam into the locos from overhead pipes to get them onto the turntable and then to the coaling station?
Yes, steam was a common utility in the, um, steam era. Generally any service area would have a boiler house that provided steam not only for the roundhouse but for outlying buildings for heat, steam-trace lines to keep pipes from freezing and heating domestic water and, if there are any passenger cars kept in the area they, too, would be on steam..
The single-stall wood shed the OP is asking about probably wouldn't be large enough nor would there be another locomotive nearby to tap into a supply of readily available hot water/steam. Depending on how much "headroom" there is in the boiler the engine could be moved a bit on compressed air.
Larger facilities had "firing sheds" where the hostler would move engines for building of a new fire. This photo shows a blower system in order to induce draft:
Locoblow-photo by Edmund, on Flickr
Obviously a Pennsy facility. Speaking of PRR, I've seen photos of roundhouses and outdoor engine service areas that are equipped with smoke extractors that would fit over the stack and collect smoke which, I believe would be scrubbed, then sent out a tall stack at a distant location.
Scroll down here for another look at a "Snow" smoke extractor:
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/chimney/chimney.htm
Railroads were constantly battling local smoke-elimination regulations in populated areas. I know these "smoke suckers" were also used at Fort Wayne, 59th St. in Chicago and other places.
Sometimes locomotives were pressed into service when the stationary boiler in a steam plant went down for some reason. I know a pair of, IIRC L1s, were used in Sunnyside Yard for standby steam heat. Several factory plants I've heard of had leased locomotives and used them until repairs or a new boiler could be built at the factory.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=5406014
The big Pennsy coaling facility at Denholm used three boilers from PRR locomotives for heat and freeze prevention as well as loco boilers used at track pan locations.
Good Luck, Ed
They pulled in front first. If they didn't fit then the tender hangs out instead of the locomotive which is getting serviced. The engine house is to protect the locomotive and the workers from the elements. The tender is not as important. Here is a picture of the Santa Fe roundhouse in San Bernardino California circa 1940s.
crossthedog...so the loco comes up the grade forward, and I thought maybe it would park in the shed pilot first overnight, then take the morning mixed local back down the branch. But if it takes another engine posted locally just to pull the first one out of the shed every morning, that's not very efficient.
You need to add a little more imagination...there's no reason that the fire couldn't have been banked, with an employee knowing at what time he'd need to get the fire hot, so that the loco could move under it's own power when necessary.
Ash pits were very prevalent near the end of rural tracks serving small towns, and somebody in that town could have earned a little dough by dropping the ashes and watering them down. Once it cools down it could be used for pathways, and I recall seeing lots of such paths near, and along the Grand River in southern Ontario.
These answers have all been very instructive and encouraging.
I believe I will scratch-build a small boiler room tight against the shed on the near side in the photo, between the little back door and the windows. The whole shed will need to be moved over a bit to accommodate this but I was going to move it anyway because of track changes. I will also install a smoke jack toward the back and, if I can find a photo of what one looked like, an ash pit out front. Then I think I will feel good about bringing the locomotive into the barn at night and backing 'er out in the morning.
This thread has been a very helpful one for me. Thanks all.
crossthedogand, if I can find a photo of what one looked like, an ash pit out front.
Ash pit on a budget:
Switches, Track, Etc. at the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Ry -- 7 Photos by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
A little more elaborate:
131008_28_silverton by lmyers83, on Flickr
Great Central Railway Loughborough Leicestershire 26th August 2021 by loose_grip_99, on Flickr
Here's a well-detailed look at what would be a small, and easily modeled ash pit:
Durango, 1968 by Fritz Klinke, on Flickr
Coal and Ash_P-L by Edmund, on Flickr
Of course, size and complexity greatly increases from these examples.
Thanks again, Ed. For a single locomotive on a small branch line, I think the pit in the photo of Silverton 481 would do nicely.
You haven't got any photos of a small boilerhouse shed up your sleave, do you? The only thing I could find searching online were models.
Hello All,
crossthedogYou haven't got any photos of a small boilerhouse shed up your sleave, do you?
In our town there were smelting operations that required a boiler house.
The smelting operations have long since gone but the structure that held the boiler and office still remains.
It is a non-descript stone structure with a corrugated metal roof- -think powder house- -where, in case of a boiler explosion- -the force of the explosion would be channeled up through the "weaker" roof structure by the stone walls.
The footprint is two (2) small square structures that share a common wall. The boiler room has a separate entrance facing away from the office with two (2) windows.
Placing a small stone structure up against the engine house seems feasible.
As far as adding a smoke jack to the engine house have you considered only adding a single smoke jack in the center of the cupola?
On the inside of the engine house there could be an upside-down "T" shaped vent with a damper in the center to open or close one end or the other, depending on which way the engine is oriented.
Because this is inside the engine house you wouldn't have to model this venting as it is not visible from the outside.
Another option would be to put a smoke jack at each end of the engine house with a damper on each to open and close depending on which way the engine is facing.
Hope this helps.
Post Script: Don't be to hard on that "kid" he did some great work back in the day! H.T.H., J.J.D.I.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Darnit JJ! (<-- see what I did there?)
That is one of the most useful posts I've ever seen, directly applicable to the fallout from my original question. Two things:
jjdamnitIn our town there were smelting operations that required a boiler house. The smelting operations have long since gone but the structure that held the boiler and office still remains.
jjdamnitAs far as adding a smoke jack to the engine house have you considered only adding a single smoke jack in the center of the cupola?
EDIT: Well, now looking back up at the photos others have generously provided I see that the part of the smoke jack showing above the roof can take a number of different shapes, But still, one of these narrow cylinders rising out from the cupola? Just want to make sure I understand the proposal. (I also like the idea of doing one at each end, probably even easier).
-mdf
crossthedogWhat do you mean by this? When we say jack, we mean the circular chimney with a little half circle over the top, right?
Didn't all six (including your own) of the first replies mention "smoke jack"?
crossthedogI've never seen that so having trouble envisioning it.
One of the drawings I provided mentions smoke jack as I recall. The second drawing has more details (click to enlarge it).
Now I'm confused...
Note that in this particular engine house the second Smoke Jack is specified only on tracks that have wheel drop pits:
Smoke Jack over Drop Pit by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's more detail of the larger smoke jack:
Smoke Jack, Large by Edmund, on Flickr
I hope that gives you something to work with.
gmpullman crossthedog What do you mean by this? When we say jack, we mean the circular chimney with a little half circle over the top, right? Didn't all six (including your own) of the first replies mention "smoke jack"? crossthedog I've never seen that so having trouble envisioning it. One of the drawings I provided mentions smoke jack as I recall. The second drawing has more details (click to enlarge it).
crossthedog I've never seen that so having trouble envisioning it.
And yes, I saw your drawings. They'll be useful if I decide to put a smoke jack at either end. What I meant when I said I was having trouble envisioning it was where jjdamnit suggested I put a smoke jack coming up through the cupola on my wooden building shown above. That's what I am having trouble envisioning. I can clearly envision installing at each end one of the above-roof items I've been shown here.
Hope that clears things up, and thanks for pressing the issue.
Alma, Colorado, is the town.
The boiler room/office is now a private residence behind The Sheepherder store, across the highway from The Alma Diner.
Viewing through Google Maps the boiler room was the room on the left of the silver SUV.
Here's a rough sketch of the venting system for the engine house, with a positionable damper in the center.
jjdamnitThe boiler room/office is now a private residence behind The Sheepherder store, across the highway from The Alma Diner.
This building is exACTly what I would want to tuck up against my engine shed, with the stone below and the wooden gable above. It's adorable, really. I love stone. What a great little historic treasure. I hope you point it out to everyone who visits.
And thanks for clarifying your idea with a visual, you and Ed both (drawings and images). That's what I thought you meant, but I don't immediately like the idea of the smoke jack rising up through the cupola like that. I might put one at each end of the building. But then, as John and Ed discussed above, with a boiler room hard by there might be enough steam to move the loco out of the shed and thus obviate the smoke jacks altogether.
Thanks again,
gmpullman Sometimes locomotives were pressed into service when the stationary boiler in a steam plant went down for some reason. I know a pair of, IIRC L1s, were used in Sunnyside Yard for standby steam heat. Several factory plants I've heard of had leased locomotives and used them until repairs or a new boiler could be built at the factory.
I've come across references to locos being used as stationary boilers, and also as locos "sitting on house steam". My question is - where is the loco's valve/fitting that is used to give or receive steam?
Jim
hardcoalcase I've come across references to locos being used as stationary boilers, and also as locos "sitting on house steam". My question is - where is the loco's valve/fitting that is used to give or receive steam? Jim
One option would be to remove the whistle and whistle valve. That would give you a 1½" threaded pipe connection. Some modern engines had a front-end whistle piped to the superheater header — better yet. It is possible, but I can't confirm this, that one of the safety valves could be removed, replaced with a tee and the safety valve replaced on top of the tee. This would provide a 2½ or 3" pipe connection.
Option three would be to tap off the turret header. There is a 2" pipe connection there for steam heat (even on freight engines) on later engines with superheaters, the turret is usually piped into the superheater header.
Sometimes the tender is removed and an oil burner placed in the firebox thus alleviating the need for constant firing and reloading of coal.
John-NYBWDidn't roundhouses and garden tracks, then and now, have a boiler house that could pump enough steam into the locos from overhead pipes to get them onto the turntable and then to the coaling station?
The problem with letting the fire go out overnight, or over the weekend is the time it takes to reheat the boiler. I toured the CP museum in Revelstoke, BC. There was a retired engineer in the cab of a mountain class loco that he had driven in service. He said that starting with no fire, in an oil fire machine, it took eight hours to be ready to move. You need to start a low fire and let it warm things up, and increase the heat gradually at intervals to avoid cracking the fire plate. So you would not want the engine to sit without a fire for a long enough time for the steam pressure to go to zero and the water to start cooling.
I think I know the problem, and in larger engine houses they had an overnight fireman who checked the water level in the boiler, and steam pressure ofter, and took action when necessary.