I've been researching the history of RDCs. My research tells me they were used primarily in commuter service and lightly traveled branchlines. I still have a couple of questions that I have been unable to find answers for.
What was the range of the RDCs between fueling stops. The only thing I could find was they were sometimes used on medium length routes without defining what a medium length was.
I also read that Budd discouraged the use of RDCs in tandem with non-powered cars. This implies that some railroads did use them with non-powered coaches.
I also read that they were used on a Philadelphia-Pittsburgh train with dining car service. None of the versions of the RDC I read about were diners so this would indicate a standard dining car was part of the consist.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hi Bear,
Fixed the first two .pdf links for you. Looking at that URL in your post, Chrome added some kind of gobbledy-goop before the https:// prefix that the forum software didn't like or recognize. Once I removed that, everything behaved nicely.
You also don't need to add the bracketed "urls" before and after the link; just paste the URL in the body of your reply and hit Enter. It will automatic become a link. The only time you need the bracketed "urls" is when linking to a thread on this forum.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
the longest run was probably the Western Pacific Zepherette or the British Columbia RR. The PRSL ran multiple car trains as much as 10 cars from Philadelphia to various New Jersey seashore towns. cars would be broken off at various branchs. Apparently it was common knowledge that pulling trailers voided the warranty but I have no proof of that. I doubt the story about really long distance with a dining car. The PRR didn't have any. NYC and B&O did. Might check with someone who knows about those railroads. B&O would be the only railroad beside PRR that could have run Philly to Pgh.
John-NYBWI also read that they were used on a Philadelphia-Pittsburgh train with dining car service. None of the versions of the RDC I read about were diners so this would indicate a standard dining car was part of the consist.
B&O ran a Philadelphia - Pittsburgh RDC Train called "Daylight Speedliner". Whenever I saw it, it was three cars. The lead car had a buffet section. If you do a search for B&O Daylight Speedliner you should come up with more information.
I was always told the rdc did not have the power to move a unpowered trailer and itself. they were noty designed that way.
By the time RDcs appeared, mail service was mostly done. so some of the RPOs could have been converted to buffet/diners
Shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
The RDC's that I worked on in my early days had a "straight air" brake valve (i.e., functioned like the independent brake on an engine, moving the handle rightward increased cylinder pressure, to the left to release it), not automatic air brakes. These were on former New Haven cars (perhaps a few from other RR's as well) in Amtrak service by then.
In that configuration, you couldn't control the brakes on a trailing coach (or any car set up for "regular" air brake operation), because you could not make a "brake pipe reduction" (if there was a way to do that, I don't remember, it's been 40+ years).
I believe that with the straight air valve cut out, it was possible to tow an RDC in a train "as another car".
Other railroads may have had different air brake setups.
OldEnginemanI believe that with the straight air valve cut out, it was possible to tow an RDC in a train "as another car".
"In tow" behind a pair of NYC EMUs:
NYC_RDC_M-455 by Edmund, on Flickr
Limiting factor to hauling another car, I believe was the fluid torque converter and the fact that only the inside axles were driven on the RDC. Budd strongly discouraged it but some roads did it.
Regards, Ed
I recall back in the '70s when it was rumoured that the TH&B was going to end passenger service, so drove into Hamilton to get a ride on a pair of RDCs, heading down to Buffalo, New York.I'm not sure, but that particular train probably ran out of Toronto, as both cars were quite full when I got aboard at the Hamilton station.
The train ended-up at the large station in Buffalo, and the majority of riders got aboard buses to go shopping. I spent the day wandering around the station and taking pictures of trains and locos.
When it was time to return to Canada, the buses came back and the train was soon filled.
Upon leaving, the train was moving very slowly, due to the very poor condition of the track, and some of the passengers were complaining that they were going to miss their connections, due to the slow speeds...both cars were rocking quite severely to each side, and small lineside trees were brushing against the cars' windows, too.
The conductor assured the riders that "once we get back onto some good TH&B track, we'll easily make-up that time."
Once we crossed back into Canada, and stopped for the Border Service folks to check for dutiable purchases, we were back in motion.
As we began to pick-up speed, the din of normal conversation began to lessen, then, as we began going even faster, no one was talking.
I was watching the mileposts, and checking my watch, and realised that we were travelling at just a couple miles-per-hour over 90...this lasted pretty-well until we came to the descent down the Niagara Escarpment, where there were very restrictive speed limits, due to the grade into Hamilton, and then to the station. I'm pretty certain that nobody missed their connection that day.
Wayne
I rode one of those NYC EMU hauled RDCs out of Grand Central Terminal. To reverse the train in GCT they rode around a subterrainian loop. At North White Plains (end of 3rd rail at that time) the RCD disconnected and continued running north.
I was told the reason an RDC could not tow a coach was because the drive system was already at its maximum ability with just the weight of the RDC. The limitation was not because of lack of power from the pair of Detroit Diesel 110 series engines.
Also, the 110s were equipped with low volume injectors to effectively detune them and increase the operating range. The injection capacity of the mechanical injectors in the Budd RDC engines was more in line with what would be found in a 71 series Detroit Diesel.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I am personally sceptical regarding such figures as such “tests” are generally run at the equipment’s optimum performance.
NVSRR By the time RDcs appeared, mail service was mostly done. so some of the RPOs could have been converted to buffet/diners Shane
The RDCs first appeared in 1949 and were manufactured until 1962. The USPS cancelled their rail mail contracts in September of 1967. What doomed the RDC was a law passed in 1958 that allowed railroads to abandon passenger service on lightly traveled branchlines. Budd ceased manufacture a few years later. Existing RDCs continued to see service as commuter trains with some still in use in the mid 1980s.
John-NYBW NVSRR By the time RDcs appeared, mail service was mostly done. so some of the RPOs could have been converted to buffet/diners Shane The RDCs first appeared in 1949 and were manufactured until 1962. The USPS cancelled their rail mail contracts in September of 1967. What doomed the RDC was a law passed in 1958 that allowed railroads to abandon passenger service on lightly traveled branchlines. Budd ceased manufacture a few years later. Existing RDCs continued to see service as commuter trains with some still in use in the mid 1980s.
Regarding the B&O Daylight Speedliner.
It originally ran from Philly to Pittsburgh - via Baltimore and DC - then to Pittsburgh.
After April of 1958 it ran from Baltimore to DC, then to Pittsburgh - no Philly connection.
The B&O converted two RDC-2's (baggage/coach) to baggage/cafe/coaches for the train. Both cars still survive today.
The B&O had extensive shops and typically built all manner of equipment from near scratch. Making an RDC diner was no big deal.
The roughly 330 mile route of the Daylight Speedliner was well within the range of the RDC's.
The train was normally 3 cars, the baggage/diner/coach and two coaches. Since the B&O had other RDC's, a third coach could be added when needed. I have seen pictures of the Daylight Speedliner with 4 cars.
Service was discontinued in January of 1963.
I plan to stretch history a bit (I model Sept. 1954, the RDC Speedliner started in '56) and model the Daylight Speedliner on my new layout, as the layouts fictional location is north of DC, west of Baltimore, and interchanges with the B&O at my fictional "Potomac City".
The ATLANTIC CENTRAL also uses RDC's for commuter service around Potomac City.
Sheldon
Many railroads modified RDC's equipped with baggage compartments to replace the baggage section with a food service counter and a couple tables. I have had breakfast on the RDG "Wall Street" train between Phillie and New York. No dining car, just 20 ft of the RDC devoted to food prep.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
This may be a stretch but many years ago I was told by a Budd employee that the original transmissions were Buick dynaflow supplied by GM. That could explain why towing a car was not possible. There was a definite point at which the transmission shifted into high and rpms dropped off from my reccolection of riding one to the New Jersey shore
Kalmbach just sent me an email about this DVD about RDCs.
Budd Rail Diesel Car DVD - Kalmbach Hobby Store
It's on pre-order right now. It might answer some of the questions I posed.
ndbprrThis may be a stretch but many years ago I was told by a Budd employee that the original transmissions were Buick dynaflow supplied by GM.
Somewhere I came across information that the torque converter was a modification of the Allison CD-850 (weighing 1678 lbs.) also used in M46 Patton tanks.
If you scroll to Post War Era 1949 here you can see a photo of it:
https://www.allisontransmission.com/company/history-heritage
Maybe some of those big Buicks had the same one. I've heard people say that old Roadmaster drives like a tank!
Detroit 6-110 Budd by Edmund, on Flickr
The power units were mounted on rails that allowed fairly simple removal for service or replacement.
The original air brake system was a NYAB 26-B-1 using Budd disc brakes with a brake cylinder on each wheel (disc) with Rolokron anti-slip devices.
The more I learn about RDCs the more I'm impressed with their design.
The self contained heating system run off the engine cooling system can be switched over to steam heat when made part of a regular passenger train. Likewise the air conditioning can be operated while in a regular train as long as at least one engine is running at idle to keep the batteries charged.
They had electricly heated windshield glass. The New Haven had some RDCs (Roger Williams) equipped with 3rd rail shoes and electric traction motors on the outer two axles for GCT use.
Excellent information in this Budd brochure:
https://streamlinermemories.info/Budd/Budd49RDC1.pdf
Cheers, Ed
Yes, the RDC was a truely cutting edge, up to date machine, with all the latest technology.
How many years later before automobiles had lock up torque converters or disc brakes?
My first train ride not on a tourist line, was on a B&O RDC at age 6.
So they will always hold a special memory for me.
Minneapolis & St.Louis bought an RDC to replace a regular passenger train, pulling a new Budd streamlined coach. EMD warned M-St.L several times that an RDC could only pull itself, but the railroad continued to pull the coach until in short order the RDC motor burned itself out. Then they continued running the train only using an ancient 'doodlebug' pulling the streamlined / air-conditioned coach.
gmpullmanSomewhere I came across information that the torque converter was a modification of the Allison CD-850 (weighing 1678 lbs.) also used in M46 Patton tanks.
That is correct as I understand it. Allison also made marine gears using this fluid coupling configuration that allowe larger screws to be started from smaller engines. This proved to be a temporary solution.
Allison heavy duty transmissions were installed in some Cadillacs and Buicks, but I do not have the depth of knowledge to know how similar they were to the one used in an RDC.
The reason the RDC had two engines was because of the weakness of this drive system. Detroit Diesel made engines small enough and powerful enough to run an RDC alone, but a single drive was too weak.
One of the neatest things I ever saw was a Korean War era minesweeper with four 6-71s for power driving one of these drive couplings through an arrangement of three differentials. It looked like a $100.00 solution for a 25 cent problem.
When the local Seminole Gulf Railway demotored their three RDCs, I took one of the 6-110s apart just for fun. It was very similar to the 71 series engines. I could not get the cylinder liners out with the tools I tried to improvise.
I wanted to take apart one of the drive couplings, but there was not enough time for that.
It all went to Garden Street as scrap.
Budd officially disapproved of even lightweight/purpose-built trailers to run with RDCs, and I believe would cancel the warranty if they found anyone doing that. In part this was because of the mechanical torque-converter/lockup drive to only the inside axles. You'd need considerably better cooling of the converter oil to accelerate the car plus trailer to lockup speed, and the Detroit 110s were smoky enough without being lugged. As I recall Keilty discusses this in the doodlebug book...
All the varied cars in B&O's Daylight Speedliner were RDCs (but ISTR some Budd cars only had one engine and no driving cab; these might be thought of as 'assisted trailers' in a longer consist. The other railroad that had more than a buffet kind of food operation was the Reading, on the Crusader and Wall Street 'replacements' that ran all the way into 1983 (but I don't know if they served breakfast that long...I only rode the train before Conrail took over).
Commonwealth Railways in Australia bought 3 off the shelf RDC1's which did tow lightweight boxcars as they were used initially with Narrow Gauge connections on the Central Australian Railway to Marree in South Australia and baggage needed to go somewhere. I have ridden a few of these where there were a number of RDC's with an equal number of the box cars. Gradients were not much of an issue on Commonwealth lines but it was understood that Budd would not cover any warranty.
5 "shorty" RDC's were built for New South Wales by Commonwealth Engineering the Budd licensee here, one of which was a trailer but it was never included in a consist less than 4 cars. It was recognisable because the rooftop radiator was visibility shorter. The "shorty nature" was due to the lesser loading gauge and tighter clearances in New South Wales.
Cheers from Australia
Trevor
Overmod Budd officially disapproved of even lightweight/purpose-built trailers to run with RDCs, and I believe would cancel the warranty if they found anyone doing that. In part this was because of the mechanical torque-converter/lockup drive to only the inside axles. You'd need considerably better cooling of the converter oil to accelerate the car plus trailer to lockup speed, and the Detroit 110s were smoky enough without being lugged. As I recall Keilty discusses this in the doodlebug book... All the varied cars in B&O's Daylight Speedliner were RDCs (but ISTR some Budd cars only had one engine and no driving cab; these might be thought of as 'assisted trailers' in a longer consist. The other railroad that had more than a buffet kind of food operation was the Reading, on the Crusader and Wall Street 'replacements' that ran all the way into 1983 (but I don't know if they served breakfast that long...I only rode the train before Conrail took over).
The RDC-9 was a single motor, no controls trailer that Budd offered later on in RDC production. To my knowledge the Boston and Maine was the only original purchaser of them. Later RDC's had a boost in HP from 275 to 300, and all RDC-9's had the more powerful engine.
The B&O Speedliner cars were all standard two engine RDC's, RDC-2's converted to add the dining section, and RDC-1's. The typical consist was the RDC-2, baggage/diner/coach and two RDC-1 coaches. But addtional RDC-1's were added from time to time.
I just received a Rapido New York Central RDC-3 from an ebay seller. It was NIB. I opened the manual and right at the front it states Rapido has the same warranty condition Budd had for the 1:1 scale RDC. If an unpowered car is towed behind it, the warranty is voided. If I'm reading the warranty correctly, I can't even couple it with a powered RDC from another manufacturer. It can only be coupled with other Rapido RDCs. It further states that the RDC is equipped with a detector that can determine if another car is towed by the RDC. I find this both interesting and amusing.
John-NYBWIf I'm reading the warranty correctly, I can't even couple it with a powered RDC from another manufacturer.
THAT is something I definitely wouldn't do with the Rapido RDC. If the second unit (a Proto 1000?) hesitates or hits a dead spot in the track you're sure to "torque" the tiny drive shafts of the Rapido units. Especially since the motor would already be spinning then the axles grind to a halt. Too risky.
I have a pair of New York Central RDCs from Rapido and they run very well. While the NYC did tow the RDCs to outlying junction points that's something I'm not prone to model. I run the pair together and like the way they operate.
Rapido Beeliner by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, ED
Ed,
The problem is I have been unable to locate a Rapido RDC-1 to pair with the RDC-3. Before receiving this RDC-3, I had ordered a P1K RDC-1, not realizing this would be an issue. That hasn't arrived yet.
I've run into another problem. After bringing the RDC-3 up to speed, it takes forever to bring it to a stop. I can think of two possible explanations. If I remember right, CV3 and CV4 control acceleration and deceleration rates. I'm OK with a gradual acceleration but I want my locos to stop quickly when I shut off the throttle. The manual suggests using a 21 pin ESU LokPilot for non-sound decoder installation so I'm guessing that this factory installed Sound/DCC decoder is a LokSound. I haven't had a chance to look up what setting to use for CV4 to get a more rapid decleration. I want to control the decleration with the throttle instead of having the decoder determine how gradually to stop the loco. Do yours have LokSound or LokPilot decoders and if so, what have you set your CV4 to?
The other possibility is something I ran into with a WOW-Sound decoder which has a default that requires you to apply the breaks manually while decelerating the throttle. This might be the dumbest idea anyone has come up with in the history of model railroading but at least it is possible to shut that feature off which I have done with my one and only WOW-Sound decoder. If that feature is incorporated into the factory decoder for the RDC-3, the manual doesn't mention how to turn it off. There is an option which requires the brakes to be applied but that only affects the sound according to the manual and is only in effect if F3 is activated.
EDIT: I had to refresh my memory on CV3 and CV4 settings since it had been awhile since I'd done that. Looks like the lower the number, the less momentum. I think I have set all my CV4s to zero because I can control deceleration with the throttle but if I need my loco to stop right away, I can do that.
Sometimes I think the decoder manufacturers are getting too clever. I prefer the KISS approach.
That is interesting.
I considered replacing my Athearn RDC's when the Proto1000 models came out, and again when the Rapido models came out.
In the end, since many of my passenger cars are selectively compressed, I decided to stay with the Athearn model.
And like you with that item on Ebay, I simply could not bring myself to spend $250 each to replace an operational fleet of 6 RDC's.
So someone will ask why do I need 6? Actually I need 7 or 8. My operational scheme for the new layout calls for 4 commuter trains. Two made up of Bachmann doodlebugs with trailers for the west side runs and two made up of pairs of RDC's for the east side runs.
The other two are B&O, now about to be three or four, to simulate the Daylight Speedliner.
I have about $45 invested in each of 6 RDC's now, with Ernst gear drives and can motors, and I have some other drive line options to test. But even if I invest in better drivelines for the existing 6, I think I'm staying with the Athearn models.
The Rapido model is very nice, but I am getting more and more gun shy about ever more expensive models for which one might never find a service part down the road.
I already have a service part inventory for most of my Proto2000, Bachmann, and Athearn locos.
John-NYBWThe problem is I have been unable to locate a Rapido RDC-1 to pair with the RDC-3. Before receiving this RDC-3, I had ordered a P1K RDC-1, not realizing this would be an issue. That hasn't arrived yet.
The Proto 1000 RDC has a top speed of about 45 SMPH. You're going to have to really reduce the top speed of the Rapido model if you plan to MU the two.
I really don't recall what the default CV3 - 4 settings were on the RDCs. It has been a while since I've had them on the Lokprogrammer. Generally I give all my new locos a thorough trial on the test track and make necessary adjustments to the functions as needed.
I agree the WOWsound concept is not for everyone and, IMHO they should let the user decide to add momentum to their liking. TCS offers a "mainline mode" or "switching mode" which also effectively turns off momentum but I ignore this and customize the decoder to my liking.
I prefer to keep some degree of deceleration momentum depending on the actual gearing and purpose of the engine.