John-NYBWI finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com)
And no caboose. Looks like they ran around the train and were just coming back with the whole train reversed. With just two freight cars, they aren't going to do much switching and the conductor just has to walk two car lengths to do an air test.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
John-NYBWHere are a couple more short C&O trains with coach(es) right behind the loco and a caboose behind them. 36253175571_0132732584_b.jpg (1024×652) (staticflickr.com) https://live.staticflickr.com/4370/36489617592_37fc917554_b.jpg Not sure what the story was here. Were these mixed trains that had set out their freight cars or did the C&O run branchline passenger trains with a caboose on the end? I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
doctorwayne John-NYBW EDIT: On closer look, the combine doesn't appear to have windows so this might be a combine that was converted to a mail & express car only. I guess I need to keep looking. In the enlarged version of that photo, there does appear to be windows at the far end of that car. Wayne
John-NYBW EDIT: On closer look, the combine doesn't appear to have windows so this might be a combine that was converted to a mail & express car only. I guess I need to keep looking.
In the enlarged version of that photo, there does appear to be windows at the far end of that car.
Wayne
It certainly looks like there were windows there at one time but I can't say I see glass there now so that maybe the windows were filled in or maybe it's just poor resolution disguising the windows. Here are a couple more short C&O trains with coach(es) right behind the loco and a caboose behind them.
36253175571_0132732584_b.jpg (1024×652) (staticflickr.com)
https://live.staticflickr.com/4370/36489617592_37fc917554_b.jpg
Not sure what the story was here. Were these mixed trains that had set out their freight cars or did the C&O run branchline passenger trains with a caboose on the end?
I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco.
gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com)
It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s.
cv_acrIt most certainly wasn't cut down and converted to a road maintenance structure.
Well, it's certainly nice to see it repurposed, Chris, but it was, several years ago, used for road maintenance, mostly storage of equipment, but not necessarily vehicles. An employee there also mentioned that there had been roof over the the original waiting platforms, as shown in your first two linked photos...otherwise, I might not have noticed that they had ever been there.
That must have been interesting watching a brick structure of that size being moved. My late mother had friends and relatives in various place near Goderich and especially in Southampton, too, and my brother and I have cousins in the area, too.
One important reason for the combine being at the rear of the mixed train is that is where the conductor is based, whether in an attached caboose or the combine itself. It is the conductor who makes certain that every passenger pays the appropriate fare, whether by selling the ticket or lifting a prepurchased one. And that includes making sure said passenger disembarks at the specified station, stopping the train as required.
John-NYBWI'm still trying to determine if there are any real world examples of that arrangement. The photo evidence I've found seems to be inconclusive.
I am sure in all of history in all of the railroads in N America, you can probably find a picture of a combine being used as a passenger car on a mixed train behind the engine. Just like you can find a picture of a steam engine pulling a double stack train.
However there are several reasons why 99.999% of railroads put the combine on the rear all the time. The primary one was not bouncing the passengers around the inside of the car while switching.
As I said before, the Reading Co. operated a combine on the head end of the W&N branch local, past WW2, but it was NOT carrying passengers and was there to handle express shipments. That is about the only pictures I have seen where the combine was on the head end of a freight train.
wjstix It would be nice if the passenger station had some type of house track, even just a spur next to the depot, so the combine could be spotted there for loading and unloading passengers and express while the train does it's freight switching.
It would be nice if the passenger station had some type of house track, even just a spur next to the depot, so the combine could be spotted there for loading and unloading passengers and express while the train does it's freight switching.
I missed this comment when it was made earlier. A house track is completely unnecessary because the depot is at the end of the line near the bumper post. The track leading to the depot is a spur and the only time freight cars will be on that spur will be when they are backed down to the depot to couple with the combine. When the train comes into town, the first thing it comes to are the industrial spurs and the small yard. It passes the engine servicing facility and then has a couple blocks of street running before reaching the depot. There are no spurs on the section of street running.
When the mixed train enters town, it will drop the freight cars in the yard, then pull the combine down the street track to the depot. Once the passengers, mail, and express are off loaded. The loco will back the combine down the street to the yard where a runaround move will allow the loco to push the combine back to the depot to be loaded for the return trip. The loco can then get turned on the turntable, do whatever pick ups and set outs that are needed to reassemble the train in the yard, then back the train down the street track to couple back to the combine.
doctorwayne SD70Dude Here a series of photos of Canadian Pacific's station and yard at Goderich, Ontario, with a fairly cramped arrangement not unlike what you describe. It was interesting to see that photo of the Goderich station, as it also included the turntable, which was gone long before my first visit there. The station, somewhat shortened, now serves as a base for the town's road-maintenance crews.
SD70Dude Here a series of photos of Canadian Pacific's station and yard at Goderich, Ontario, with a fairly cramped arrangement not unlike what you describe.
It was interesting to see that photo of the Goderich station, as it also included the turntable, which was gone long before my first visit there. The station, somewhat shortened, now serves as a base for the town's road-maintenance crews.
The CP Goderich station was lifted and moved closer to the beach and converted into a restaurant.
https://www.beachstreetstation.com/our-history
It most certainly wasn't cut down and converted to a road maintenance structure.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
John-NYBWEDIT: On closer look, the combine doesn't appear to have windows so this might be a combine that was converted to a mail & express car only. I guess I need to keep looking.
SD70DudeHere a series of photos of Canadian Pacific's station and yard at Goderich, Ontario, with a fairly cramped arrangement not unlike what you describe.
It was interesting to see that photo of the Goderich station, as it also included the turntable, which was gone long before my first visit there. The station, somewhat shortened, now serves as a base for the town's road-maintenance crews.The Goderich CNR station is, as far as I'm aware, still extant...I visited there several years ago with intent to possibly buy the station, but there was a list of "can't do this, can't do that" which disuaded my intentions. The trains there, originally CNR, then Goderich & Exeter, were later Rail Link, at that time still hauling covered hoppers up the extremely steep grade from the salt mines, which extend several miles out beneath Lake Huron.
The CNR had a lot of shortlines extending down to the north shore of Lake Erie, and many saw daily mixed trains. Some destinations included a turntable, which might be man-powered or steam-powered, the latter through the loco's steam connections for the combine.When I built my layout, I kept in mind those shortline trips, so that many of my trains could run as mixed trains, (or also as one-day excursion trains, mostly to vacation spots).To ensure that train make-up was reasonably prototypical, I have stations in each of the seven towns along the rail lines, and three means (two turntables and a turning wye) that allow turning of locos and/or combines fairly close to any of the trains' destinations.Since I'm the layout's sole operator, only one train is in motion at any point in the operations, and I have lots of choices for how I want the return trips to be made.
Of course, freight is the money-maker, so those excursion runs often spend time in the passing siding that's include in most of the layout's towns.
SD70Dude Here a series of photos of Canadian Pacific's station and yard at Goderich, Ontario, with a fairly cramped arrangement not unlike what you describe. http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_London/history_G_and_G.htm In addition to being a mobile office and lunchroom, the caboose was where the train crew slept at away-from-home locations during this era. So unless your combine has been fitted with bunks or your railroad has decided to spend extra $$$ and put the train crew up in a hotel or bunkhouse you need both a caboose and combine.
Here a series of photos of Canadian Pacific's station and yard at Goderich, Ontario, with a fairly cramped arrangement not unlike what you describe.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_London/history_G_and_G.htm
In addition to being a mobile office and lunchroom, the caboose was where the train crew slept at away-from-home locations during this era. So unless your combine has been fitted with bunks or your railroad has decided to spend extra $$$ and put the train crew up in a hotel or bunkhouse you need both a caboose and combine.
There's no need for sleeping accomodations for crew. The mixed train is a turn which goes up and down the branch during a normal shift.
At least one railroad converted older passenger cars into coach-cabooses, with passenger seating in one end and the usual caboose interior in the other. Northern Alberta's 'combooses' also ended up being the last revenue service wood passenger cars in North America, some lasting into the mid-1980s on the La La Biche-Fort McMurray 'Muskeg Mixed'. http://www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=101366 CN also converted a former NAR baggage car into a 'bagboose' during the final years of this service. This car is now owned by the Rocky Mountain Rail Society and I believe it was used as a tool car and accompanied CN 6060 on excurisons between 1986 and 2001. http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=46600 A regular caboose could also end up on the tail end instead of one of the funky rebuilds. http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=25392 And while the standard mixed train configuration on most railroads was engine-freight-passenger-caboose, it's also important to remember that the crew could and would switch things up depending on daily requirements, and the caboose could end up next to the engine or in the middle of the freight cars for part of the run if this would make switching easier.
At least one railroad converted older passenger cars into coach-cabooses, with passenger seating in one end and the usual caboose interior in the other. Northern Alberta's 'combooses' also ended up being the last revenue service wood passenger cars in North America, some lasting into the mid-1980s on the La La Biche-Fort McMurray 'Muskeg Mixed'.
http://www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=101366
CN also converted a former NAR baggage car into a 'bagboose' during the final years of this service. This car is now owned by the Rocky Mountain Rail Society and I believe it was used as a tool car and accompanied CN 6060 on excurisons between 1986 and 2001.
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=46600
A regular caboose could also end up on the tail end instead of one of the funky rebuilds.
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=25392
And while the standard mixed train configuration on most railroads was engine-freight-passenger-caboose, it's also important to remember that the crew could and would switch things up depending on daily requirements, and the caboose could end up next to the engine or in the middle of the freight cars for part of the run if this would make switching easier.
Going from the terminus to the branch, a lone combine in the typical position at the end of the train would be sufficient for both passengers and crew. It is when the train goes toward the terminus that having the combine at the front of the train is the most efficient way of getting the passengers to the depot. Doing so makes a separate caboose at the end of the train necessary. Going toward the junction, the caboose could be placed either behind the combine or right behind the loco. The more I think about it, it might make more sense to put the caboose at the end of the train going in both directions.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The idea if a passenger caboose is an interesting one. I read about such a Santa Fe branchline train in Classic Trains a few years ago. The rare passenger they would get would ride in one of the few seats they had for them in the caboose. It didn't sound like that caboose was as elaborate as the models I see above.
My issue is not related to equipment. Operationally, it doesn't matter whether a combine or passenger caboose is used. It has to do with whether it would ever be prototypical to run the combine right behind the loco. As I stated in the OP, the depot at the end of the branch is not far from the bumper post. There is just enough room for the loco to pull past the depot so the combine can stop in front of the depot. Any other location for the combine would require a switching and runaround move. When leaving the terminus, the combine will be at the end of the train which is the more typical location, but to save switching when it reaches the end of the line, it would need to be at the front of the train. If it is located there, a separate caboose is needed at the end of the train. That's my reason for having separate combine and caboose on the same train. I'm still trying to determine if there are any real world examples of that arrangement. The photo evidence I've found seems to be inconclusive.
BEAUSABREA few even fielded what I call "passenger cabeese" like this beautiful example on Calfornia shortline McCloud River.
I love those. I have a couple I plan to put into service on my railroad.
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
There is a nicely preserved Passenger Caboose at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum in Chattanooga.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Why a combine and not a caboose or a combine and caboose - because many railroads were required to provide passenger service between certain points as a condition of its charter (you may have absorbed that rickety short line, but the obligation passes to the successor railroad and Public Utility Commissions did not look kindly at the idea of depriving some voters of the their train). And operating and maintaining two cars is more expensive than one. Some railroads sold tickets to ride the caboose on lighty traveled lines and a few even fielded what I call "passenger cabeese" like this beautiful example on Calfornia shortline McCloud River (note - I differentiate from a drovers caboose as they were intentioned to carry the general public as opposed to ranch hands accompanying the stock cars of a live stock shipment) and a model of a SLSW car . On a conventional combine, though, you can provide a desk and chair for the conductor and a space for the crew...or just have them occupy some of the passenger seats (I doubt many mixed trains maxed out their passenger capacity). You can watch the train out the windows and as was mentioned above, most mixed trains weren't so long that the crew wouldn't immediately notice a problem like a hotbox - you could smell it burning for one thing (there were even "extra smoky and smelly" catridges (sometimes called "smoke bombs") sold that you could install in journals). "Haven't seen the original HBD mentioned here - the conductor's nose (in the caboose). Hot boxes had a rather distinctive smell, IIRC. Seems like I read somewhere once that roller bearing cars were (at one time) being equipped with something that would either smoke or smell bad if they overheated, allowing those in the caboose to pick up on the problem."
SeeYou190 Another question: Why does the combine take the place of the caboose? My understanding of cabooses is that they provide a workspace for the conductor, a cupola to watch the train, a place to store the crew's personal items, and a place for the crew to bunk if necessary. How does a combine, maybe loaded with freight and passengers, do all of this? Why wouldn't the caboose be back there with the combine? -Kevin
Another question:
Why does the combine take the place of the caboose?
My understanding of cabooses is that they provide a workspace for the conductor, a cupola to watch the train, a place to store the crew's personal items, and a place for the crew to bunk if necessary.
How does a combine, maybe loaded with freight and passengers, do all of this? Why wouldn't the caboose be back there with the combine?
If the conductor has space in the passenger car to do his work, no need to have the caboose for that.
If the train is a out-and-back "turn" job with no overnight at the "away" terminal OR there's a crew bunkhouse at the away terminal, no need to bunk in the caboose.
John-NYBWMy plan is not to turn the combine at either end of the run. When running at the back of the train, the passenger compartment will be in the rear. On the return trip with the combine right behind the loco, the passenger compartment will be on the end nearest the loco. My question is whether this would violate any regulations or standard practices. I don't want to resort to the "it's your railroad" excuse.
That wouldn't be a problem, no need to turn the combine. In some cases a short local passenger train (say engine-combine-coach-coach) would get to the end of the line and they'd just put the engine on the other end and run back the way they came (engine-coach-coach-combine) without turning any cars.
Plus, as long as it's either summertime (assuming you don't have an air conditioned combine!) or the combine has it's own heat source, it can run at the front or back of the train - but if it's at the front you would normally need a caboose on the rear. Mixed trains with a passenger car and a caboose were quite common.
John-NYBW rri-glattenberg-mixed-1.jpg (800×450) (railroadsillustrated.com) The above photo seems to show one of two things are true 1. The combine is at the rear of the train with the passenger section toward the front. OR 2. The combine is at the front of the train with the passenger section to the rear and either the loco has uncoupled from the train or the train is waiting for the loco to hook up. I'm going to search through some more photos to see if I can get a definitive answer to my original questions.
rri-glattenberg-mixed-1.jpg (800×450) (railroadsillustrated.com)
The above photo seems to show one of two things are true
1. The combine is at the rear of the train with the passenger section toward the front.
OR
2. The combine is at the front of the train with the passenger section to the rear and either the loco has uncoupled from the train or the train is waiting for the loco to hook up.
I'm going to search through some more photos to see if I can get a definitive answer to my original questions.
It is clearly on the rear of the train, since the marker lights are in place. Many of the other photos you have referenced show tourist type operations which bear no relationship to a regular mixed train in the classic era.
BEAUSABRE John, Note the smoke jack - no steam heat on this car, which would mean its intended use is at the rear of the train. I say "intended" because, obviously, it could be used just as easily right behind the locomotive in warmer weather.
John, Note the smoke jack - no steam heat on this car, which would mean its intended use is at the rear of the train. I say "intended" because, obviously, it could be used just as easily right behind the locomotive in warmer weather.
My first guess was it was a tail end car and that clue you picked up seems to indicate that. Normally when I think of a mixed train I picture a short freight train with a coach or combine on the end. This seems to be a fairly lengthy train. I'm wondering if it is actually a mixed train or the railroad just decided to repurpose an old combine as a caboose for a regular freight train.
F117_0198.jpg (1920×1280) (wongm.com)
Not sure what to make of this photo. It appears to be a mixed train with a coach at the front end but the people poking their heads out of the car behind it suggest it might be some sort of excursion.
13448745024_415c8ef5c0.jpg (500×321) (staticflickr.com)
Here's a mixed train with two coaches toward the front but the freight cars appear to be more modern than one would expect on a mixed train.
p_mixed_davidw21feb09a.jpg (1024×693) (bluebell-railway.co.uk)
This one from the UK shows two coaches at the front of a mixed train.
C&O Mixed .jpg (1024×1271)
This one shows what I think is a C&O Geep with a combine right behind it, a single hopper, and a caboose. This is pretty much the consist I had in mind for a train moving up the branch toward the terminus. I don't know how common this arrangement might be but it looks like it was not unheard of. There might be times in my operating scheme the mixed train would have a single freight car but that would be unusual. Besides passenger, mail and express service, there are four industries in the town at the end of the branch and four more at the intermediate town.
EDIT: On closer look, the combine doesn't appear to have windows so this might be a combine that was converted to a mail & express car only. I guess I need to keep looking.
John-NYBWMoving the depot would not be practical even if this was a real railroad. The last couple of blocks leading to the depot requires street running.
Which ironically has set up the situation you were trying to avoid, because with the options and constraints presented, it's down to you invoking your own .....
John-NYBW.... "it's your railroad" excuse.
dehusman When a train switches, there is lots of slack action and jolts as the couplings are made. With the combine next to the engine, every time that happens, grandma back in the coach section gets knocked over. It won't take more than a few injury lawsuits to pay for moving the depot or buying a coal stove to heat the combine.
When a train switches, there is lots of slack action and jolts as the couplings are made. With the combine next to the engine, every time that happens, grandma back in the coach section gets knocked over. It won't take more than a few injury lawsuits to pay for moving the depot or buying a coal stove to heat the combine.
Moving the depot would not be practical even if this was a real railroad. The last couple of blocks leading to the depot requires street running. Beyond that is the engine servicing, small freight yard, and industrial spurs. The tracks follow a meandering creek coming into that area on a fairly steep grade. Moving the depot would require moving it well out of town which makes no sense. The terminus of the branch is at a lake resort town. Passenger traffic consists of tourists and commuters. Morning and evening commuters ride a doodlebug. In addition, during the summer there is a Friday evening passenger only train bringing tourists into town and a Sunday evening one for those returning home. There is (or will be) a large resort hotel across the street from the track bumper and a smaller hotel a half block away. It would be terribly inconvenient for the tourists to have the depot out of town. The depot is where it needs to be.
MidlandMike One reason to run a combine behind the loco would be if the coach was steam heated, although the company might not want to spare a newer car on a mixed.
One reason to run a combine behind the loco would be if the coach was steam heated, although the company might not want to spare a newer car on a mixed.
Plus with the combine on the head end, you have to then shove the biggest, heaviest, longest car in the train, with longer wheelbase trucks into every ratty industrial track, hoping to clear every loading dock on the line, while carrying people.
On the line I model, in the 1930's and 1940's the local carried a combine on the head end, but it was only carrying express, and was not carrying passengers, it was not a mixed train.
John-NYBWThat won't work. The depot is at the end of the line. There isn't room to pull the whole train past the depot to get the combine in front of the depot. That's the reasn for putting the combine at the front and having a separatte caboose on the rear.
The real railroad answer is move the depot, its in the wrong place.
Putting the combine right behind the engines would be too expensive.