On passenger trains that carried an RPO and a single express/baggage car, which would normally be right behind the locomotives or did each railroad have their own rule on this. I've scanned dozens of passenger trains from the 1950s and there doesn't seem to be a hard, fast rule. It looks like the more common arrangement would be to have the baggage/express first followed by the RPO but I have looked at such a small sample size it's not clear to me that is true.
[Deleted - Thesis not cogent]
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
John,
You are correct in presuming there was no hard, fast rule on RPO placement. Most railroads made up their passenger trains to permit the simplest switching moves, en route or, at the final terminal. Most RPOs would be shifted to a postal facility while baggage would be worked at the station, so it made perfect sense not to bury the RPO behind the baggage while the baggage was being worked. Passengers did not want to wait for their baggage while the switcher set out the RPO, and then brought the baggage car back to the depot. Even if the "baggage" car in fact, was sealed and carrying storage mail, it would be against the passenger carrying cars on most trains.
I looked at the New Haven's 1962 consist book, specifically the trains that had RPOs, which differentiates between baggage and storage mail cars and found the following: note, entire consists are not listed, the RPO is the car of interest.
Train 2- RPO, mail storage, baggage, coaches.
Train 3-RPO, baggage, coaches
Train 8-Sealed storage mail, RPO, diner.
Train 29-Deadhead baggage, sealed storage mail, RPO, parlor car.
Train 30-Baggage, RPO, baggage
Train 32-Storage mail, RPO, storage mail.
Train 58-Express, RPO, express.
Train 69-Express, RPO, baggage.
Train 60-Deadhead grill car, RPO, storage mail, baggage.
Train 66-Baggage, RPO, parlor.
Train 71-RPO, baggage.
Train 93-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 168-Baggage, RPO, combine.
Train 169-Storage mail, RPO, combine.
Train 171-RPO, baggage.
Train 174-Express, RPO, parlor.
Train 176-Baggage, 2 RPOs, storage mail.
Train 179-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 180 (M&E)-Storage mail, RPO, baggage
Train 181-Baggage, RPO, baggage.
Train 186-Express, RPO, baggage.
Train 187-Express, RPO, storage mail, baggage.
Train 191-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 197-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 199-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Note the RPOs coupled to all variety of passenger carrying cars. Note also the movement of deadheads. Sometimes they were behind all of the passenger carrying cars. Deadheads included all varieties of passenger train cars, with some trains having a many as six deadheads, ahead of the revenue headend cars. It all depended on where they were coming from and going to.
Many railroads had more traffic in one direction, than the other. Although all of those cars would not be necessary going the other way, how would you get them back "home"? Deadhead them! Just place them so they don't interfere with any en route switching.
That is an interesting collection of passenger cars. My main interest was for my secondary passenger trains which will carry an RPO and a single baggage/express car alone with a coach or two and maybe a diner. I run one train that is mainly mail and express with a single coach at the end. I place the RPO on that train in the middle of the storage mail cars. I see one train lists a diner but no passenger carrying cars so I am guessing the diner is deadheading back to its point of origin. I also find it interesting that some list only a parlor car as passenger carrying equipment. I know what these cars are but have never been sure how they were used. I had always guessed they were used an the first class passenger trains as a place for passengers to congregate but not as their primary accomodation. From the consists youu list, it appears some were used in lieu of coaches.
In most cases on most roads, any baggage car ahead of the RPO would be a mail storage car. Such cars may or may not be labeled as such.
And yes, mail storage cars could be on either side or both sides of the RPO.
Passenger baggage, and REA cars would be after all of the post office controlled cars.
Yes, a train run primarily for mail would likely have mail storage cars on both side of the RPO and/or multiple RPO's.
REA cars can and were sometimes ahead of RPO equipment depending on switching requirements at major terminals on that road. But since RPO equipment was often moved quickly to a post office siding, they were typically first.
Sheldon
By US Postal regulations, RPO's had to be on the head end of the train.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
In my post, I only focused on the RPO and the cars immediately surrounding it in the consist, not the entire consist, as stated in the note. To better understand what I'm trying to convey, please go to the Alphabet Route website at www.alphabetroute.com and click on the New Haven and Hartford listing which takes you to a list of New Haven resources, where you will see a subgroup listed as equipment rosters. In this subgroup, will see a section entitled "passenger car rosters and consists" or something to that effect. The last item listed will be the 1962 consist book, from which I extracted the information I posted.
Due to the quality of the photocopying process, a lot of the train numbers and such are hard to read. Therefore, I will use page numbers for the trains I referred to:
No.2-p.8
No.3-p.9
No.8-p.11
No.29-p.15
No.30-p.16
No.32-p.16
No.56-p.20
No.69-p.23
No.60-p.21
No.66-p.22
No.71-p.23
No.93-p.29
No.168-p.36
No.169-p.36
No.171-p.37
No.174-p.39
No.176-p.40
No.176-p.41
No.179-p.43
No.180-p.44
No.181-p.45
No.186-p.47
No.187-p.48
No.191-p.49
No.197-p.49
No.199-p.49A
New Haven was the division point where cars were set out for the working of headend traffic and cars were swapped to trains heading for the appropriate destination. You will see that the consists of many trains varied according to the days of the week. The train you saw on Monday might look nothing like the train you saw on Friday or Sunday. Not all trains ran everyday and, the consist that ran between two cities one day, might turn for different cities the next, or cover a different schedule. To spend a week-day in New Haven would definitely water your eyes with the complexity of it all!
One additional point concerning the number of deadheads, especially between Grand Central and New Haven. The NH did not service its passenger equipment at New York Central's Mott Haven yard, even though they entered GCT over NYC trackage. It seems the NYC wanted to charge the NH enough that the NH found it was cheaper to deadhead it the 72.5 miles back to New Haven and then deadhead it back to GCT, if necessary.
As far as your impression of the use of parlors and diners, it would not be feasible to run a diner or grill car as the sole passenger carrying car on an NH train. They had no vestibules, like most food service cars thus entry had to be from an adjoining car. You are partially correct in the fact that parlor cars were for first class passengers, and lesser trains probably did not offer this accommodation. Parlor cars were reserved seat, with an extra fee charged for a reclining, swiveling single chair, with a white jacketed car attendant, on the NH. You are probably thinking of lounge or bar cars, depending on railroad, as places for passengers to congregate.
The New Haven had three different configurations of parlor cars, some having lounge sections, some bar/buffets others, day roomettes or "drawing rooms" for those demanding total privacy. There were some that had a baggage compartment making them stainless steel sheated combines. One humorous ancedote on the New Haven's parlor car fleet. when built, a group of them came with two rows of those plush, reclining, swiveling seats with white antimacassars on one side and a single row on the other side.
Before the cars had a chance to get dirty, they were back in the shops, getting that second row of seats yanked out! New Haven parlor car patrons figrued they were paying an extra fee for a reason--to not have to sit next to anyone else and by gum, that's the way it had better be!
Remembering your road's connection with the Pennsy, I highly recommend you get a copy of the book "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains, Consists and Cars" that I referenced in your post about interline trains. Amazon has a few copies and although it costs about $40, you won't regret the money well-spent.
I have imagined that both the NYC and Pennsy are major shareholders in my railroad and it has working arrangements with both, but the NYC is the big dog. Both have trackage rights over parts of my railroad but there is far more NYC traffic. When I planned the railroad, it was going to be completely independent and just interchange with the bigger railroads but soon after I began construction, there was a lot of great NYC equipment coming on the market so I rewrote the narrative and made the NYC a parent of my railroad with traffic rights. Later, I picked up some nice Pennsy equipment at an estate sale and so I made them a minor shareholder as well with a couple joint passenger trains operating over the line and interchange with the Pennsy represented by a track in my east end staging yard.
If I remember right, 1956 which is the year my railroad is set was the year the two giants first began discussing the possibility of a merger. I further imagine that my railroad eventually became part of the Penn Central merger although I doubt I will ever move my timeframe forward.
Somewhere in my boxes of railroad books I have a complete history of the Pennsy from inception through the Conrail days. I think it was published before the break up of Conrail. I don't think it is the title you mentioned.
No, it isn't. The book I suggested is written by a fellow by the name of Steigmeier (?) and covers the east-west blue ribbon fleet of passenger trains such as the Broadway Limited, the General, etc, between New York and Chicago as well as St. Louis. Interline trains such as the Penn Texas are also included. Not only does it give consists somewhat similar to the NH, it also illustrates the cars, photographically in black and white, as well as color, in 1952. Nothing Penn Central or Conrail!
Your scenario reads like the Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac which took Florida bound trains of the Atlantic Coast Line and, Seaboard Air Line from the PRR in Washington and handed them over to their owners in Richmond VA. A passenger train bridge line.
John-NYBWI place the RPO on that train in the middle of the storage mail cars.
If a railroad had enough mail to warrant a separate mail / express train, it would often have open baggage cars with mail on either side of the RPO, so the clerks in the RPO could access additional sacks of mail to sort en route.
John-NYBWI see one train lists a diner but no passenger carrying cars so I am guessing the diner is deadheading back to its point of origin.
Quite possible, but unusual. Normally a railroad tried to have a diner work both directions - a diner would be on a train going west in the evening to serve dinner, then would be taken off late at night, restocked, and then cut into an eastbound train in the wee hours of the morning to serve breakfast.
John-NYBWI also find it interesting that some list only a parlor car as passenger carrying equipment. I know what these cars are but have never been sure how they were used. I had always guessed they were used an the first class passenger trains as a place for passengers to congregate but not as their primary accomodation.
A parlor car was in effect a first-class coach. It was often used on trains that ran in the day, so did not have the usual first class (sleeping car) patrons. It wasn't like a lounge where people wandered in and out, people had their own cushy seats, sometimes seats that swiveled. Not sure why a mail train would have a parlor car, unless it was deadheading?
John-NYBW My main interest was for my secondary passenger trains which will carry an RPO and a single baggage/express car alone with a coach or two and maybe a diner. I run one train that is mainly mail and express with a single coach at the end.
My main interest was for my secondary passenger trains which will carry an RPO and a single baggage/express car alone with a coach or two and maybe a diner. I run one train that is mainly mail and express with a single coach at the end.
Generally, only one train on any given route would carry express and/or mail. Either it would be a dedicated train (which would usually be the highest prioriy train on that route) or it would be carried in the line's 'second best' train on that route (like Great Northern's 'Western Star' or Northern Pacific's 'Mainstreeter'). A branchline that the railroad had a mail contract for might just have an RPO in a train, or a combined RPO/Baggage car.
wjstix John-NYBW My main interest was for my secondary passenger trains which will carry an RPO and a single baggage/express car alone with a coach or two and maybe a diner. I run one train that is mainly mail and express with a single coach at the end. Generally, only one train on any given route would carry express and/or mail. Either it would be a dedicated train (which would usually be the highest prioriy train on that route) or it would be carried in the line's 'second best' train on that route (like Great Northern's 'Western Star' or Northern Pacific's 'Mainstreeter'). A branchline that the railroad had a mail contract for might just have an RPO in a train, or a combined RPO/Baggage car.
My railroad has a main trunk line but major branches to other cities. The mail train operates on the main trunk. The secondary passenger trains serve the branchline cities and that's why they have their own RPOs.
I've read that RPO's were generally discontinued in the mid-late 1960's. I've noticed that RPO HO models are often painted in Amtrak schemes. Did RPO's actually run during Amtrak era?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 I've read that RPO's were generally discontinued in the mid-late 1960's. I've noticed that RPO HO models are often painted in Amtrak schemes. Did RPO's actually run during Amtrak era?
The very last run, of the last remaining RPO route between NYC and Washington DC, was on June 30, 1977.
Amtrak was created in 1971. Not sure if any RPO cars were actually repainted for Amtrak.
There were a handful baggage/RPOs that Amtrak inherited from Southern that were in Amtrak colors and served into the 90s.
It is my understanding that the few pure RPOs that served on the NEC in the 70s never lost their PC paint.
Most railroad mail contracts were cancelled c.1968 IIRC. A lot of the reason Amtrak happened was the railroads had many passenger lines that had been breaking even (or at least only losing a small amount) with the mail contracts. Once those contracts ended the railroads found that they were losing money hand over fist. The railroads then basically begged the government to take the passenger trains away from them, which happened in 1971.
I remember seeing a mail train on Amtrak's NEC in Connecticut in 1989. I don't remember if it had RPO, or was just mail storage cars. It lasted into the millenium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)
MidlandMike I remember seeing a mail train on Amtrak's NEC in Connecticut in 1989. I don't remember if it had RPO, or was just mail storage cars. It lasted into the millenium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)
The post office continued to use mail storage cars to move bulk partly sorted mail, and AMTRAK had a number of such cars.
But no onboard mail sorting after June 30, 1977.
NittanyLion There were a handful baggage/RPOs that Amtrak inherited from Southern that were in Amtrak colors and served into the 90s. It is my understanding that the few pure RPOs that served on the NEC in the 70s never lost their PC paint.
That is what I seem to remember as well. It took a long time for AMTRAK to decide what to keep, and what was worth repainting. Clearly an RPO would have been at the bottom of both lists......
Mike wrote: "I remember seeing a mail train on Amtrak's NEC in Connecticut in 1989. I don't remember if it had RPO, or was just mail storage cars. It lasted into the millenium."
I used to run them. No RPO's by the time I was around. Just material handling cars and baggage cars.
Mail 12/13, and Mail 10 were Shoreline trains. There was another, 641, that left Boston 2.30am, ran over the B&A to Springfield (where the mail got worked), then made passenger stops down the Hartford Line and on to NYC/DC. It usually had 4 or 5 mail cars on the head end, and about 6 coaches behind. You went up on #178 (last Shoreline train to Boston in the evening), got a few hours' rest, then came back on 641 -- you'd be tired when that run was done!
Given how long they've been gone, might not hurt to add some info re RPOs. Railway Post Office cars were just that - a US Post Office on rails. Only the US postal clerks sorting mail in the car were allowed in the car, even though the car was owned by the railroad fulfilling the mail contract. An RPO would only be used on routes that had enough mail that mail had to be sorted en route in the moving train. This is different from a locked car carrying sacked / sorted mail to a destination.
BTW the postal clerks all carried sidearms. My dad's first post office job in 1943 was working as a mail handler, moving mail between the main post office in downtown Minneapolis and the nearby Great Northern and Milwaukee Road stations. He also had to carry a sidearm when doing that.
Does this consist infromation apply to any passenger train in the transition era?
June 30, 1977:
RPO_NY-Wash, 1977 by Edmund, on Flickr
RPO_2016_0016_fix (2016_08_17 08_08_12 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
ATSFGuy Does this consist infromation apply to any passenger train in the transition era?
Did Canadian roads have similar rules and carry RPO's also?
Most of what we have discussed are UNITED STATES postal rules, were there significantly different rules north of the border?
dehusman Did Canadian roads have similar rules and carry RPO's also? Most of what we have discussed are UNITED STATES postal rules, were there significantly different rules north of the border?
They definitely operated RPO cars in many areas and sealed mail-storage baggage cars between major cities.
Long before my time, but RPOs I've seen in RR museums had the mail-sorting room take up the one end of the car so there was no physical passage to any other car coupled at that end, and the door at the other end had a heavy locking/bolting mechanism.
Non-postal employees wouldn't have been able to physically get in.
The thing one poster mentioned about carrying sidearms I don't know about.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acrThe thing one poster mentioned about carrying sidearms I don't know about.
Yes, the postal clerks were armed. I don't know if all the clerks were bit at least there were designated ones that were armed.
See above at 2:15
Regards, Ed
I saw a picture of an RPO that had a rack of shotguns on the wall. Yes they were armed, and very well. The rack was in between two sorting desks. Five pump action shotguns would keep the mail thieves away. I think it was taken in the thirties or early forties. It may be on Shorpy, I don't remember where but it struck me and I recall the picture clearly.
Pete.
All RPO clerks were required to carry their USPS issued .38 while on duty. And some RPO cars did have additional weapons as well. It is the textbook example of deterrance, as there are no commonly known reports of a RPO clerk having to discharge his weapon or any accounts of RPO robbery attempts.
The facts surrounding the carrying of firearms by RPO clerks is documented in a USPS publicity film made I believe in the 50's.
Being an RPO clerk was a higher paying prestigious job in the post office which carried extra responsibility.
Crowded Apartment!
RPO_Apartment by Edmund, on Flickr
Apparently, the clerks were permitted to hang up their holsters?
RPO_Apartment-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
— and, hey! Who's hiding donuts up here?
RPO_Apartment-2-crop by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed