The MD&W cars were assigned to a Boise Cascade mill in Kenora, ON.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Yankee Dabbler has a proto1000 MDW car on their website in the closeout list today for about $19 (3/16/2022).
maxman Are the P1000 paper cars prototypical for anything, and if so what time frame?
Are the P1000 paper cars prototypical for anything, and if so what time frame?
1967+
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cn401666&o=cn
The models are accurate for cars built by National Steel Car rostered by
Canadian Pacific
Canadian National
Central Vermont
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific
Pacific Great Eastern/British Columbia Railway
Minnesota, Dakota & Western/Boise Cascade
Quebec, North Shore & Labrador (isolated, non-interchange)
Chris'
I focused on the Roundhouse car due to it being more readily available here in the lower 48. I want(ed) some of the Proto 1000 cars, but they were hard to find here in the U.S., at least at the outlets I regularly patronize.
As for the ends, that is strictly up to FRRYkid. I just wanted to provide the information about the ends and make him aware of a supplier of some really nice detail and, replacement parts.
With the time that elapses between the announcement of an item, and time we actually hold it in our hands, I will be there, cash in hand, if I'm around. I am at the age where you no longer make long range plans. We'll just have to wait and see which happens first.
NHTXWith some filing of the sidesills, they also resemble Canadian/Canadien National's 400000 series cars many of which had yellow doors, signifying newsprint loading only. If the 5-5 dreadnought ends on the models are a problem for you, the appropriate NSC-3 ends are available at www.yarmouthmodelworks.com.
Or you could 1) wait for the Atlas or 2) find one of the Proto1000 cars which is the same tooling that Atlas acquired on the secondhand market, as these are accurate for the CN 400xxx and CP 850xx series and no amount of kitbashing will make any other model an exact match.
NHTX Those Atlas cars are very interesting but, how long must we wait?
Those Atlas cars are very interesting but, how long must we wait?
Given that I have a car from another company on pre-order from the end of 2020 that was supposed to be released last fall and won't be out till this fall, I'm not too worried about it.
Have you looked at CP's 80000 series 50 foot, plug door cars, with the large red, white trimmed shield that contains the words "for newsprint only"? Athearn's Roundhouse model of a 50 foot smooth side plug door box car can be used as a stand-in, and should be readily available on e-bay. There are knock-offs by many manufacturers and decals are available from Black Cat and I believe, Highball Graphics.
With some filing of the sidesills, they also resemble Canadian/Canadien National's 400000 series cars many of which had yellow doors, signifying newsprint loading only. If the 5-5 dreadnought ends on the models are a problem for you, the appropriate NSC-3 ends are available at www.yarmouthmodelworks.com.
cv_acr The 1967-70 smooth side "newsprint" car being listed by Atlas was NOT released a year ago. It's still under pre-order for their first release.
The 1967-70 smooth side "newsprint" car being listed by Atlas was NOT released a year ago. It's still under pre-order for their first release.
That's interesting as the site shows that a good chunk of the cars including two of the three CP cars as being sold out and to contact a dealer to get them.
However I will place a pre-order for the other car later this evening.
FRRYKidAnd of course, I can't find either the CP or CN cars in any of my usual sources. Atlas does show a CP car as a pre-order but given the release was more than a year ago, I don't think anything's going happen with that one.
This is however, tooling that Atlas recently acquired from the defunct TrueLine Trains, and these cars were previously run under the Life-Like Proto1000 banner by Canadian Hobbycraft, so secondhand version of the Proto1000 branded cars will be floating around out there.
cv_acr The first link represents cars built in the 1967-70 range, so definitely fit into a seventies layout. If you're looking for one or two cars that are accurate, without a bunch of kitbashing, this is the ticket. During this era, CP colour coded newsprint service boxcars by painting them green (1967+); CN colour coded by painting the doors yellow (~1960+).
The first link represents cars built in the 1967-70 range, so definitely fit into a seventies layout. If you're looking for one or two cars that are accurate, without a bunch of kitbashing, this is the ticket.
During this era, CP colour coded newsprint service boxcars by painting them green (1967+); CN colour coded by painting the doors yellow (~1960+).
And of course, I can't find either the CP or CN cars in any of my usual sources. Atlas does show a CP car as a pre-order but given the release was more than a year ago, I don't think anything's going happen with that one.
If anyone's got a good idea where I might find one of the CP cars and if the place would do busines via email and s-mail, I'd like that very much.
The metric system. Since 1795. Used by 63/64 of countries around the world.
Pete.
cv_acrNYC/PC assigned some freight cars to their Canada Southern (CASO) division for Canadian service.
That's correct...those 300 CASO cars were originally built in 1916 as steel automobile cars, but were later, in 1937, rebuilt at E. Buffalo as steel boxcars.The book I have shows both the original automobile cars and the re-built versions that were sent to CASO. A couple of weeks ago, I re-worked a couple of Train Miniature boxcars into fairly decent models of the CASO cars...
...complete with inverse ends (albeit 5-5-2 ends, not the correct 7-7 ends of the prototypes. (I used Tichy 5-5-5 ends as patterns to create the inverse corrugations using aluminum insulator's tape, with the sticky side covered in aluminum foil, then used contact cement to affix the ends to flat sheets of .060" sheet styrene used to replace the original TM ends.)
If I were more ambitious, I'd make a pattern for 7-7 inverse ends using Evergreen half-round strip material, but I don't feel like dismantling the two that are in-service. Most viewers would likely not recognise my error.
The cars are a good fit for my late '30s-era layout.
Wayne
FRRYKid cv_acr FRRYKid On a different but related question, does anyone have good pictures of the newsprint cars as I am most likely need to get one and a good start for an HO model of one? https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-honscnewsprint.htm https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho50nscpdbc.htm In looking at pictures of some of those nice looking cars, they would work for the last part of the era that I model (BN creation merger of 3-1-70 to the merger day with the Frisco of 11-21-80) but I would like something that would work closer to the mid-70s era. I had looked at something like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/154358633071?hash=item23f07dd26f:g:1EwAAOSwuuFgQYB7) to fit a bit better. I did find a picture in this scheme. However I don't know if these ever made it across the border.
cv_acr FRRYKid On a different but related question, does anyone have good pictures of the newsprint cars as I am most likely need to get one and a good start for an HO model of one? https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-honscnewsprint.htm https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho50nscpdbc.htm
FRRYKid On a different but related question, does anyone have good pictures of the newsprint cars as I am most likely need to get one and a good start for an HO model of one?
https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-honscnewsprint.htm
https://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho50nscpdbc.htm
In looking at pictures of some of those nice looking cars, they would work for the last part of the era that I model (BN creation merger of 3-1-70 to the merger day with the Frisco of 11-21-80) but I would like something that would work closer to the mid-70s era.
I had looked at something like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/154358633071?hash=item23f07dd26f:g:1EwAAOSwuuFgQYB7) to fit a bit better. I did find a picture in this scheme. However I don't know if these ever made it across the border.
The cars in the second link were built around 1977-80.
(You just need to ignore any of the repaint and secondhand patch-job paint schemes offered.)
Older 40' cars are also a good idea, but would have to be kitbashed to be an accurate representation.
The Bowser car is horribly inaccurate. The newsprint service cars should have 8' doors, not 6', and the Bowser body style (with that rivet pattern, and end and roof combination) doesn't remotely match anything that ever existed in Canada.
There are some variations as there were three major car builders in Canada producing similar cars at the time (and CP even built at least one group themselves) and naturally each builder used a slightly different combination of ends, roofs, door styles, and riveted vs. welded bodies. So you can detail about half a dozen different variations. But they were all built around a standard pattern of 3900 cuft internal volume and 8' doors.
CP's cars were in the 50000-60099 range. CN's similar cars were buried somewhere in the 500000 series which I'd have to dig out. They also had some older cars that were rebuilt with widened 8' and 9' doors, and even one or two series with plug doors.
wjstix New York Central's Canada Southern Ry. (technically the Canada Southern division of Michigan Central) had high-nose GP-7 and GP-9 engines built by GMD in Canada which - unlike their US counterparts - were set up to run short-hood forward. Some (all?) were bought second-hand from C&O - I wondered why C&O had GMD GPs when I first read that, hadn't thought about C&O having lines in Canada too.
New York Central's Canada Southern Ry. (technically the Canada Southern division of Michigan Central) had high-nose GP-7 and GP-9 engines built by GMD in Canada which - unlike their US counterparts - were set up to run short-hood forward. Some (all?) were bought second-hand from C&O - I wondered why C&O had GMD GPs when I first read that, hadn't thought about C&O having lines in Canada too.
NYC/CASO had trackage through Ontario between Windsor/Detroit, MI and Niagara Falls.
C&O (ex-Pere Marquette) operated track between Windsor and St. Thomas (closely paralleling the CASO), and from a junction at Blenheim up to Sarnia. Part of the C&O in Sarnia is still operated today by CSX as sort of an isolated terminal shortline.
Wabash had a running rights agreement over Grand Trunk (later CN).
The city of St. Thomas, ON bears the nickname "the railway city", as at one point in its history it was served by no less than six different railways (Canadian National, Canadian Pacific, London & Port Stanley, Wabash, Canada Southern/New York Central, and Chesapeake & Ohio). Today it is only served by CN and shortline Ontario Southland, with lots of abandoned tracks.
cv_acrMichigan Central/New York Central/Penn Central, Pere Marquette/C&O, and Wabash all operated in Canada and specifically purchased diesel engines from EMD's Canadian division to serve their Canadian operations, built in Canada due to import duties.
FRRY kid;
To best answer your question about newsprint cars appropriate for your 1970s era, may I direct you to www.rr-fallenflags.org, go to Canadian Pacific and, freight equipment and using the numerical listing in the left hand margin, scroll down to the 5xxxx series which are 40 foot boxcars. Look at the photos taken in the time frame you model. No use looking at 1986 photos if you're modeling 1970. Al Ferguson Black Cat Decals has a very good selection of CN, and CP sets for almost anything you may wish to do.
Michigan Central/New York Central/Penn Central, Pere Marquette/C&O, and Wabash all operated in Canada and specifically purchased diesel engines from EMD's Canadian division to serve their Canadian operations, built in Canada due to import duties. NYC/PC assigned some freight cars to their Canada Southern (CASO) division for Canadian service.
The CNA and CPAA cars were explicitly AMERICAN cars - i.e. built and acquired in the US, with no import duties. They could be used in international or US domestic service the same as cars from any other US railway. (There's a reason a lot of the CN and CP auto parts boxcars were US built and CNA/CPAA, to operate in the auto parts pools with US railway cars.) As actually US cars, they could stay in the states indefinitely.
The CNIS and CPI cars were supposed to be used for cross-border international service ONLY, not to be loaded domestically in either country. I'm not fully understanding the customs regulation for that one. These were generally Canadian-built cars.
The free trade agreements loosed up a fair bit of the above.
Otherwise, any normal US or Canadian car could freely cross the border with an international shipment. Just a Canadian car could not be used domestically in the US or vice versa. I'm not too sure about the hours limitation cited though, as depending on the car's destination it might take well over a week just to get there. The full turnaround would certainly be over that.
As I understand it, you could ship something from say Montreal to Pittsburgh in a CN or CP car, but the car could only be in the U.S. for so long (like 48 or 72 hours) before it had to be back across the border. The "international" cars were allowed to stay longer, I believe Chris is right that it was because these were US-built cars.
I recall that Duluth Winnipeg & Pacific kept a GM end-cab CN switcher in Virginia MN (where DWP interchanged with DMIR) for many years; it was OK because although it was a CN engine it had been built by EMD in the US, rather than by GMD in Canada.
Any metric lettering is simply out of courtesy for the customers. Canadian railroads still use imperial measurements for everything, including car dimensions and weights.
Our detectors give temperature readings in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit, but that's the only change we've ever made.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
wjstixAlso, I know CN and CP had cars marked for international service going back to the steam era, I don't know if they still do now? It seems to me since the trade agreements of the 1990s (like NAFTA) came into affect, the restrictions on how long a Canadian car could be in the US (and vice versa) were pretty much eliminated.
The "international service" (CNIS, CPI, etc.) markings cropped up in the sixties. They also created marks (CNA, CPAA) for cars that could be used in US service. Previous to those marks, CP had a number of US-built boxcars lettered for the "International of Maine Division" which fell under that same category and were treated as US cars. CN did not have any equivalent to that, but CN did have US subsidiaries Central Vermont, Grand Trunk Western, and Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific.
NHTXThe only concession was Canadian National's use of the French spelling of "Canadien" on one sdie of the car out of respect for the large French speaking population of Canada's eastern provinces.
Which was a design/branding choice as part of the 1960s logo redesign and not a legal requirement or mandate. (Which I'm pretty sure you're not saying, but I've seen someone claim that before on this forum, so let's head that off right now.)
FRRYKidOn a different but related question, does anyone have good pictures of the newsprint cars as I am most likely need to get one and a good start for an HO model of one?
FRRYKidWhen were cars that travel between Canada and the US first required to carry dimensional data in both pounds and kilograms?
Never.
While SOME Canadian cars have metric data on them, many do not; and US cars operate into Canada all the time, none with metric data.
dehusmanThere may be some "directional bias" here. The Canadian roads have series of cars for international service. The US roads do not.
Also, I know CN and CP had cars marked for international service going back to the steam era, I don't know if they still do now? It seems to me since the trade agreements of the 1990s (like NAFTA) came into affect, the restrictions on how long a Canadian car could be in the US (and vice versa) were pretty much eliminated.
I know visiting Canadian railroad yards in the 1970s-80s about 99% of cars were CP or CN; now many of the cars are from US roads.
NHTX Rapido needs to do some Canadian NSC 40 foot boxcars with the eight foot sliding doors as used by both CN and CP, in newsprint service. Hmm. Maybe a dozen. Rather than be limited to a few roads cars just delivering newsprint, I am going to do a paper products distributor, that handles products for business and industry, arriving in cars from the paper producing companies all over North America.
Rapido needs to do some Canadian NSC 40 foot boxcars with the eight foot sliding doors as used by both CN and CP, in newsprint service. Hmm. Maybe a dozen. Rather than be limited to a few roads cars just delivering newsprint, I am going to do a paper products distributor, that handles products for business and industry, arriving in cars from the paper producing companies all over North America.
Reason for the Canada mention is that I worked for a printing company/newspaper for about a decade and the rolls of paper we got for the web presses came out of Canada (via truck not railroad but the idea is there).
On a different but related question, does anyone have good pictures of the newsprint cars as I am most likely need to get one and a good start for an HO model of one? In the alternative, would an RBL of some sort work for a newsprint car or is that too new?
Most of America never fully metricated-ever.
NHTXThis metric business must be a recent developement
I was gonna say, metric units were still being phased in during the 1970s and the railroads never fully metricated anyhow.