I just flipped my New York Central calendar to March and the photo shows a pair of RS-3s at Dumont, NJ pulling a commuter train. What I found interesting is that it is double headed. I get at least one NYC calendar every year and usually it will contain a picture of a NYC RS-3 pulling a commuter train but usually it is a single RS-3 pulling a 2 or 3 car train. The dust and exhaust make it impossible to see just how many cars are on this train but I would say it is at least 4. These are heavyweight coaches which is what I typically see in these photos of NYC commuter trains. Just how many cars would a heavyweight consist have to have before a second RS-3 would be required?
The time of day puzzles me as well. The photo is taken from in front of the loco and there is a short shadow on the right, barely reaching the ties of the adjacent track. That would indicate an AM northbound or a southbound PM run. Dumont is about 14 miles north of what was the West Shore's passenger terminal at Weehawken. If this was a rush hour train, it seems it should be moving in the opposite direction. Maybe there is a section of track that runs east-west on that line, and the sun is to the south of a train moving east. The date of the photo is March 5, 1958.
John-NYBWJust how many cars would a heavyweight consist have to have before a second RS-3 would be required?
In this case, four.
rn1-351s by George Hamlin, on Flickr
I'm trying to recall the details of a train that ran on the old Putnam Division that had an RS-3 in the middle of the passenger consist. Some trains on the Putnam and Harlem Divisions were combined at XC Tower, Putnam Junction (Lake Mahopac) Trains from Sedgwick and Golden Bridge, then split up and each separate train would go to their destinations, to be reversed the next morning.
I've seen others on the NYC that would have a Budd RDC in tow and at a certain junction the RDC would be cut off and run on another route.
Good Luck, Ed
Commuter trains may make multiple runs in the morning or evening rush hours. They same train may reverse direction to go back for a second trip.
mvlandsw Commuter trains may make multiple runs in the morning or evening rush hours. They same train may reverse direction to go back for a second trip.
That would make sense. The angle of the sun indicates this was probably a post rush hour run.
I have the same calendar. The picture is taken from trackside, to the right of the train so you see the engines and the right side of the train (from the train crew's point of view) trailing off in the distance to the left.
Only the first couple of cars are clearly visible. Starting at about the third car, a combination of a cantilevered signal bridge, exhaust smoke, and ballast dust blocks the view of the rest of the train. I can't tell if there's 4 cars, or 14.
The photo was taken this time of year, March 5 (1958). If you look at the lower right corner, you can see the long shadow of a telephone or telegraph pole which is apparently out of sight to the left of the photographer. Also, the pilot/steps of the lead RS-3 (which aren't very high) are casting a shadow onto the track next to the engine. My guess is the time is more like 9 a.m.
We're the RS units on the NYC equipped with steam generators? The PRR had their hammerhead with the steam generator in the short hood. Just curious.
Pete.
In my neck of the railroad woods we had an Erie (Lackawanna) commuter train operating from downtown Cleveland to Youngstown, 66½ miles, every weekday. In my time the usual power was an E8 and until the mid-'70s carried four cars.
EL_625 by Edmund, on Flickr
I remember the conductor mentioning that anytime the E8 was not available the substituted RS-3 would always guarantee the train would be at least 20 minutes late at either end of the run.
The old Alco just didn't have the get-up-and-go the E8 did. I saw quite a few instances where the Alco was assisted by GP9 or even a GP35 on occasion. The steam-generator equipped RS-3 was tagging along to keep the heat on.
EL_Solon by Edmund, on Flickr
Commuter trains with the numerous, usually closely-spaced station stops would benefit from getting up to speed quickly. As years went on, more diesels arrived and fewer trains run making more engines available so pairing them up to help maintain timetable schedules plus having some redundancy in case of engine troubles must have made it worthwhile to have the second engine.
Regards, Ed
wrench567We're the RS units on the NYC equipped with steam generators?
Yes, at least some of them were. NYC used them fairly often on commuter and branchline passenger trains in the 1950s.
Thank you Stix.
I realized after I posted that the hammerheads had steam generators and dynamic brakes. That is why they had the high short hood. I wonder how effective the dynamic brakes were in commuter service?
You would think that growing up watching RS2s and RS3s with Stilwells on the Northern branch, I would remember how long the trains were. I seem to remember some were 5 cars. I don't recall ever seeing a doubleheaded consist on the Northern.
I don't know offhand how the Erie cars compared in weight to the Central's (the NYCSHS, I think, actually has an article on the Web about these cars, some examples of which were interesting...)
I don't remember seeing doubleheaded RS on the Pascack Valley either, although there were trains with doubleheaded E8s (and a solid consist of 1937-era ATSF stainless coaches!)
I'm sure there were occasions they ran doubleheaded on the Old Main and Bergen County lines, perhaps often, but the 'main' might as well have been on the Moon for my ability to reach it before the early Seventies, by which time the U34s were well-established there.
On the Erie, 1957 by Fred Clark, Jr., on Flickr
In the 1960s, on the Harlem Division, 12 car commuter rush hour trains had two RS3's. Midday trains with 3-5 cars had a single RS3.
Although I am somewhat familiar with NYC's commuter service in the Boston vicinity, the area in discussion is foreign territory for me. NYC's Boston area commuter territory extended west to Framingham (21.4 miles) and, Worcester (44.3 miles). Service was provided using RS-2s and 3s, Budd RDCs (Beeliners) and E units. The RS-3s were mostly in the 5500 series with steam generator stacks like the tall "sewer pipe" stacks found on some steam locomotives, sticking up at the far end of the short hood. In the warm weather when heat was not needed sometimes a 5300 would get the call.
Most commuter trains pulled by single RS-3s on both the New Haven and NYC rarely exceeded six cars with heavyweights but, NH had Osgood-Bradley 8300 series "lightweight" coaches that could probably expand a New Haven consist, depending on the trains destination. The destination of the train, route profile (grades to be encountered), distance between stops, and schedule all affected the motive power assignments on these commuter trains. This is where the ability to quickly accelerate from one stop and, brake just as quickly for the next one, is all important.
Two RS-3s on a commuter run on any given day could mean anything from rescue power for a locomotive failure, to a simple expedient for moving a locomotive to and from routine servicing, for a point that lacked those facilities. The further away from the origin, a train's final terminus was, the more likely the power laid over there. For instance, the New Haven's Blackstone (36.09 miles) and Providence RI (43.78 miles) from Boston were runs where the power remained overnight. The conventional equipment used on the 18.91 mile Stoughton MA run used to deadhead out in the morning and return in the evening. Some roads used commuter engines as switchers or, local freight power between commuter runs. Roads that had them, preferred to enjoy the economies of the Budd RDC during off-peak hours. A single car required no "fireman".
Back in October 1980 I had an afternoon/evening fireman job on the Harlem line. One of legs of the job worked north to North White Plains, then back to G.C.T. I used to take my lunch break in the lower level of the North White tower (NW) seen in the pic in Ed's post above.
No RS units on passenger trains by then...
NHTX The further away from the origin, a train's final terminus was, the more likely the power laid over there. For instance, the New Haven's Blackstone (36.09 miles) and Providence RI (43.78 miles) from Boston were runs where the power remained overnight. The conventional equipment used on the 18.91 mile Stoughton MA run used to deadhead out in the morning and return in the evening. Some roads used commuter engines as switchers or, local freight power between commuter runs.
The further away from the origin, a train's final terminus was, the more likely the power laid over there. For instance, the New Haven's Blackstone (36.09 miles) and Providence RI (43.78 miles) from Boston were runs where the power remained overnight. The conventional equipment used on the 18.91 mile Stoughton MA run used to deadhead out in the morning and return in the evening. Some roads used commuter engines as switchers or, local freight power between commuter runs.
I've often wondered about the schedule of crews that operated these commuter trains from distant layover locations. If they brought the train into the city in the morning, would they return home with that train in the evening? If so what would they do in between? Would they work other trains between rush hour runs? If they operated the same rush hour commuter train both morning and evening, it seems like that would make for a 10-12 hour shift.
Ed's picture is interesting for a number of reasons. The train is southbound leaving Waldwick, at the entrance to the famous Collins S-curve. Note that both of the RS units are short-hood-forward, which indicates to me they weren't turned at Suffern and were operated bidirectionally -- the only train I ever rode to Hoboken operated its unit the same way southbound, and while I recall every other southbound unit operating long-hood-forward, I find my memory not exact enough to confirm that detail.
Is that arch-window combine a Boonton Line car?
Note the steam-generator-equipped Geep. I actually have a picture of one of these northbound with Stilwells in the early Seventies... taken from the bridge in the background of the shot.
I do not know if this represents protection power or an exceptionally heavy (say, holiday) consist.
Overmod,
Any arch windowed cars on the Erie (or EL) were Stilwells. Actually, the Stilwells were not arch-windowed either. The Stilwells had normal, rectangular windows paired in a sheet steel stamping that contained the arch and made up the the car sides, to provide any configuration desired. The Boonton or "Wyatt Earps" were all steel, had open vestibules-no doors or traps, only end posts where a diaphragm would be mounted. These cars became popular with tourist and rail museum operators due to their "old west" appearance. even though they were 30 or 40 years removed from that era.
As far as crew utilization, I remember riding an off-peak local from Hoboken to Dover, via Boonton, about 41 miles to the west. With RS-2, number 909 and two Wyatt Earps, the crew made the all stops run to Dover, short hood forward. In Dover, they simply ran around the consist and headed back to Hoboken, long hood now forward as the Supreme Being and ALCo had intended. They made three of these round trips per day.
The New Haven had a somewhat unique, if not as interesting operation on their Needham Branch in the Greater Boston area. The Needham Branch was 13.62 miles long and, fell entirely within the territory served by Boston's Metropolitan Transit Authority (later, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority) with whom they competed with directly.
During off peak hours, service between South Station and Avery (Needham Heights) was provided using a single Budd RDC. Remember, single RDCs could be operated with a two man crew of engineman and conductor. A run in either direction was carded at 30-35 minutes with approximatley 15 minutes allowed at Avery to remove your reverser handle, fold up your seat, walk to the other end of the car and get set up to operate from that end. They operator's seat was unfolded, reverser installed and window in the door slid open if the weather agreed. If it didn't the heat was turned on. The New Haven's Shoreline consisted of four tracks out of South Station. Tracks 1, 2, and 4 went beyond Forest Hills to points west, while track 3 was the Needham Branch in its entirety and operated as a bi-directional, single track line. It was quite exhilirating to meet a Shoreline express coming hell-bent, in a cloud of diesel smoke, out of Back Bay Station while you were braking for your station stop there. It was between Ruggles Street and Back Bay that the tracks made a short but steep climb from below, to above street level. Once in South Station, the Needham locals would operate in and out of the lower numbered tracks, to avoid conflicting with other services and, terminal movements. It was a branch that reminded me so much of the tinplate streetcar that endlessly cycled back and forth, bumper to bumper on its own isolated track, yet right alongside a roaring main line.
The NYC operated theirs long hood forward while Pennsy ran theirs short hood forward. What was the prefered orientation for the other railroads that operated on the New Jersey side of the Hudson?
Lackawanna (D.L. & W.) ran long-nose forward.
ERIE, Long nose forward:
ERIE_925_RS-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
Reading, Long nose forward:
Reading_466_RS-3-a by Edmund, on Flickr
Jersey Central, Long nose forward:
Jersey_Central_1543_RS-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
[edit]
Great photo here at Boston. Had to include it Taken from inside the cab of another RS-3:
NYC RS-3 Nos 8214, 8209 & 8221 SouthStation by ironmike9, on Flickr
Interesting material on this thread. I rememeber RS3s on Boston area commuter trains on both the New Haven and the Boston and Maine. B&M communter trains on the Lexigton Branch laid over on weekends at Bedrod, MA.
John Ham's book, From Gotham to the Berkshires, has all kinds of pictures of RS3s and other interesting beasts on both the Harlem Division and the Put.
Hupe this helps
work safe.
John-NYBWThe NYC operated theirs long hood forward while Pennsy ran theirs short hood forward.
Not so sure about that, I thought both railroads were noted for running long-hood first until the low-nose 2nd generation diesels arrived?
wjstix John-NYBW The NYC operated theirs long hood forward while Pennsy ran theirs short hood forward. Not so sure about that, I thought both railroads were noted for running long-hood first until the low-nose 2nd generation diesels arrived?
John-NYBW The NYC operated theirs long hood forward while Pennsy ran theirs short hood forward.
You might be right. I based that on pictures of other Pennsy road switchers I'd seen with short hood forward. Here's one:
33702376045_f9c2a10af8_b.jpg (1024×628) (staticflickr.com)
I have several Pennsy calendars and see other examples of GP-7s with short hood forward. Can't find any calendar pictures with RS-3s in either direction but some of the online photos I've seen show them long hood forward, especially on commuters. I'm wondering if when the low hoods came out whether Pennsy started running the older road switchers short hood forward.
Looks like I'm going to have to change CV 29 on my Pennsy RS3.
John-NYBWLooks like I'm going to have to change CV 29 on my Pennsy RS3.
Just add 1 to whatever value you have for CV29 and that will reverse direction.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage John-NYBW Looks like I'm going to have to change CV 29 on my Pennsy RS3. Just add 1 to whatever value you have for CV29 and that will reverse direction. Tom
John-NYBW Looks like I'm going to have to change CV 29 on my Pennsy RS3.
First you need to confirm that CV 29 is set at an even number. Most likely it will be but if you add 1 to CV 29 when it's already an odd number, it will have a ripple effect on the other bits in the CV 29 byte and will likely have unintended consequences.
Doesn't the Bowser model have the "F" designation on the long-end of the PRR RS-3? I believe it does.
Are the engineer's controls on the right side when the long nose is forward? I believe they are.
PRR_RS3_Front by Edmund, on Flickr
There may be variations but most of the PRR RS-3s I've looked at are long-nose forward.
In service they may be run, of course, short nose leading but for all practical purposes, the engine is then "in reverse".
John-NYBW tstage John-NYBW Looks like I'm going to have to change CV 29 on my Pennsy RS3. Just add 1 to whatever value you have for CV29 and that will reverse direction. Tom First you need to confirm that CV 29 is set at an even number. Most likely it will be but if you add 1 to CV 29 when it's already an odd number, it will have a ripple effect on the other bits in the CV 29 byte and will likely have unintended consequences.
You are correct, John. For switching direction: Add "1" if the value for CV29 is even; subtract "1" if it's odd.
John-NYBW wrote "if you add 1 to CV 29 when it's already an odd number, it will have a ripple effect on the other bits in the CV 29 byte and will likely have unintended consequences."
It's easier to do this (change directional bit) using JMRI...
It's pretty easy to change the directional bit without JMRI.
I guess if you have JMRI up & running on your layout. I find it easier & quicker to read it/change it with my DCC throttle.
There are several online CV29 calculators. Answer a few questions and bingo bango done.
The PRR designated long hood forward except for cab units until the GE U25 arrived. All the previous RS, GP, and diesel switchers were long hood forward. Few had dual controls for easier bidirectional travel. You would think even the large Lima and Baldwin center cabs would be dual controls. But no.