Another special train would be the inspection train.
One type is the technical inspection, where various special engineering-type cars are run for trackage inspection. Most of us don't have models of such cars, so it's unlikely we'd run such a train. It wasn't uncommon to include "non-engineering-type" cars in the train, by the way.
The other type is the business type. This could be ONLY railroad business, such as a train including both the home-road's cars, and one or more guest railroad cars. An example might be a train including SP&S's only business car plus an NP or GN car.
There were also business inspection trains to inform and/or entertain clients.
Ed
John;
Due to your interest in passenger train operations, a few thoughts if you please. First, a book recommendation: Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains, Consists and Cars-1952, Volume 1, East-West Trains by Harry Stegmaier Jr. As the title says, this hardcover book diagrams Pennsy's passenger trains in detail in five chapters titled: Through Trains on the New York-Chicago Main Line, Through Trains on the New York-St. Louis Main Line, Intermediate Main Line Trains, Main Line Mail and Express Trains and, Passenger Trains and Power of the Pennsylvania Railroad. All circa 1952, with photographic illustrations of cars, locomotives and trains, in black and white but, overwhelmingly in color. The consists alone are worth many times the price of the book. Not only do they give car type, X-29, B-60, R-50 etc, but also the point of origin and destination. Equipment of connecting lines is also shown, in color as well. This hardcover book has been out quite a while so I don't know the current price but, it was copyrighted in 2003 by TLC Publishing and is ISBN 1-883089-81-6
Second item of thought. Because you are interested in passenger trains and interline movements, have you considered the passenger extra? Not daily, but once in a while?
There were many extras, or "specials" from a marketing viewpoint. For instance, National Guard units used to travel by rail to their summer training areas. Boy Scouts, possibly Girl Scouts as well, used to travel by train to their annual jamboree. This would bring older, chartered sleepers from all over the U.S., many in the paint schemes of the long-gone name trains of many railroads. What about major sporting events? The Army-Navy football game used to be held in Philadelphia, turning a team yard adjacent to the stadium into a sea of GG-1s, and foreign sleepers from as far away, as the west coast. Many a train brought food service cars with them, especially those requiring overnight travel. Beyond the Army-Navy game there were also specials for the baseball world series, even for rivalries between adversaries separated by more than 100 miles. Closer to home, there were race track specials, using commuter equipment that was idle after the rush or, older spare coaches as, the trains were the means, not the event.
Lastly, many of us remember the fantrip. A railfan group would collaborate with the railroad of choice to run a passenger extra, usually on the weekend. Historic or rare power, possbily even restored steam, would pull a train of equally interesting or, simply otherwise idle equipment equipment, on a Saturday or, Sunday. The fan trip was usually an all coach affair, with an open door baggage car somewhere in the consist, selling souvenirs and snacks.
My first train trip without my parents was a 1950s, Saturday trip over the New Haven in old coaches, to a Scout outing to Plymouth MA, to see The Rock. Fantrips are gone because of a lawsuit-happy society we now endure but, back in happier days, I remember fantrips over New Haven freight-only trackage to Fitchburg MA using the New Haven's one-of-a-kind RDC train with diesel like cabs on its end cars, known as the "Roger Williams". Another trip over the New Haven and the Central Vermont took us to Brattleboro VT, in New Haven coaches pulled by a pair of CV GP-9s. We connected with the fantrip which, originated in New Haven CT at Willimantic CT by RDC over the freight only Midland Route, from Boston. The engine change from New Haven to CV Geeps took place in Willimantic. Notable about the CV trip is the fact that a railroad may no longer roster passenger cars but still has a boiler equipped unit. Even if this had been an all CV trackage trip, the CV would have probably rented the cars from the New Haven as its neighbor and interchange partner. Also, the New Haven always was very accommodating of the railfan- and horse racing afficienado.
Give some of these some consideration as ways to spice up your passenger operations. The further you go back over the years, train travel becomes more predominant as the Interstate Highway system fades away, the jets vanish and the passenger train is again on center stage.
wjstix That's a good point to bring up, although the Empire Builder's cars were mostly GN cars, some cars were owned by CB&Q or SP&S, or were owned/operated by Pullman. That's why the cars had "EMPIRE BUILDER" on the letterboard, with the owner name/initials on the ends of the letterboards in smaller lettering. GN wanted the train to look uniform,...
That's a good point to bring up, although the Empire Builder's cars were mostly GN cars, some cars were owned by CB&Q or SP&S, or were owned/operated by Pullman. That's why the cars had "EMPIRE BUILDER" on the letterboard, with the owner name/initials on the ends of the letterboards in smaller lettering. GN wanted the train to look uniform,...
SP&S had cars built for service on the Portland section of the Empire Builder that were initially lettered EMPIRE BUILDER but were later lettered SPOKANE PORTLAND & SEATTLE instead. They kept the GN paint scheme, however, until when they were repainted to Broadstripe. Also, the baggage-RPO's built for the train never had EMPIRE BUILDER on them, but always GREAT NORTHERN.
...to the point they had cars lettered "EMPIRE BUILDER" that were used on other GN trains but were available to substitute on the Builder if needed.
I would very much like to see examples of that. It doesn't fit at all with what I recall.
That's a good point to bring up, although the Empire Builder's cars were mostly GN cars, some cars were owned by CB&Q or SP&S, or were owned/operated by Pullman. That's why the cars had "EMPIRE BUILDER" on the letterboard, with the owner name/initials on the ends of the letterboards in smaller lettering. GN wanted the train to look uniform, to the point they had cars lettered "EMPIRE BUILDER" that were used on other GN trains but were available to substitute on the Builder if needed.
As information, the GN's and one CBQ "Great Dome" Empire Builder lounge car has six wheel trucks due to the weight of the car. Those cars and the diner and ranch car where on a St Paul-Chicago-Seattle-St Paul rotation cycle.
Ed Burns
John,
I'll tell you what New Haven and Pennsy did. They ran 'em straight through, Boston-Washington, Washington-Boston. Go to the consist book and look at trains in the 170 number series and you'll see the three Washington trains that carried diners, the Colonial, Senator and Patriot,carried their diners the entire 450 plus miles between Boston and Washington, regardless of which railroad it belonged to. As pointed out in another post, it allowed both roads to roster fewer diners. For instance, if a diner served lunch between Baltimore and Philadelphia, then dinner beteween New Haven and New London, after it closed, it would not be set out in Providence. Closed, it would continue on to Boston with the rest of the consist, where it could be serviced, cleaned, and restocked for the return trip. It is labor intensive, time consuming, and therefore very expensive, picking up and setting out passenger cars. Thats why railroads avoided it, any time they could.
I knew a retired New Haven chef who much preferred to work the Penn jobs instead of the shorter Grand central runs, because he got paid extra for working offline, on another railroad. Not only did the cars go offline, the crews went with them.
It was the RPOs that didn't leave home iron. Please investigate this book. It is an eye opener. Some trains even picked up PRR coaches in New Haven and dropped them in Baltimore or vice versa! Diners were usually open two hours for each meal so, if yours hit your layout in the late morning and depending on where this took place, it would at least serve lunch and maybe dinner on your rails. The schedule will dictate that.
NHTX True, that the Pennsy and New Haven ran interline trains between Boston and Washington. These trains could consist of all New Haven, all Pennsy, or a mix of the two roads, coaches, parlors, diners and sleepers. In the early 1950s, the PRR bought two Budd built, streamlined consists including square ended observation cars to outfit the Congressional Limited and the Senator. The Senator was a Boston-Washington train operated by the two roads.
True, that the Pennsy and New Haven ran interline trains between Boston and Washington. These trains could consist of all New Haven, all Pennsy, or a mix of the two roads, coaches, parlors, diners and sleepers. In the early 1950s, the PRR bought two Budd built, streamlined consists including square ended observation cars to outfit the Congressional Limited and the Senator. The Senator was a Boston-Washington train operated by the two roads.
This is the operation that most interests me because it is similar to what I have in mind. I'd even chosen The Senator as the name for this train, unaware that the Pennsy had such a train on the northeast corridor. My principle fictional city is in northern New Jersey and is the first stop coming out of east staging which represents interchange yards with several of the roads in that area. I envisioned a joint train from Washington to upstate New York, diverging from Pennsy rails at Newark. While I'm interested in how the RPOs would be handled at the interchange, I'm more interested in what to do with the diner. Would it likely be dropped off at the interchange or would it continue on the train to the northern terminus. I haven't worked out the exact schedule but I see this train coming onto the layout late morning. It would need some kind of food service for the lunch hour and I don't know whether to drop the Pennsy diner off in my principle town and subsitute a diner from my home road or just continue the Pennsy diner on through to the end of the journey. I'd like to know which would be the more prototypical practice. The other option would be to have the Pennsy diner theoretically being dropped off in Newark and never leaving Pennsy rails. In that case, I would just add a diner to the consist when it arrived from Newark. That's why I would like to know if it is a prototypical practice for a joint train to keep the same diner for the entire length of the run.
The address for the consist book should have an additional "h" after the "nynh" that follows the .com/. I hope that fixes it. If not simply go to www.alphabetroute.com, then find the New Haven in the list of railroads covered and then, passenger car roster, and at the bottom of the list, you will find the consist books.
True, that the Pennsy and New Haven ran interline trains between Boston and Washington. These trains could consist of all New Haven, all Pennsy, or a mix of the two roads, coaches, parlors, diners and sleepers. In the early 1950s, the PRR bought two Budd built, streamlined consists including square ended observation cars to outfit the Congressional Limited and the Senator. The Senator was a Boston-Washington train operated by the two roads. Early on, the New Haven would turn the entire consist on the car washer loop in Boston, but NH's declining finances soon brought that practice to a halt. Closer to the coming of Penn Central, even the Pennsy stopped turning it in Washington as well. Because train 173 did not carry head end cars between Boston and New Haven, those with a seat in the Martha Washington or Benjamin Franklin (parlor-lounge-observation cars), had the pleasure of watching the headlight of the trailing FL-9 dance the entire 155 miles to New Haven, where it would be replaced by the end of a headend car or an EP-5 electric (coming from Rapido!!!).
For those with a strong interest in intercity passenger, mail, and express operations, an education can be found at:
www.alphabetroute.com/nynh/equipmentlists/NH%2010-1962%PCNST.pdf,
Here you will find a 1962 New Haven consist book. The consist book contains the makeup of all of their passenger trains other than commuter, a roster of all cars, the trains they are assigned to, those which are spares (yes, in case a car had problems and couldn't go, you had to have spares available) and more. Of note is the break out of the the originating points of head end cars and, the way they were swapped from train to train at New Haven. For instance, we know New York's Grand Central terminal was stub ended, the end of the line, you couldn't go any further. Yet, the New Haven had trains headed for Grand Central carrying cars bound for off line cities as far away as Atlanta and Jacksonville.
The train bound for GCT would set these cars out in New Haven for pickup by a "Penn Job" bound for the Pennsy, coming along later. During the time between trains, M&E from other GCT trains bound for off line points would be transferred to the appropriate PRR bound cars. There was a lot of head end action in New Haven. This was also where the switch from diesel to electric locomotives took place on some trains. The reverse is true of eastbound trains. The number of each kind of car in the makeup of the train often varied during the week so, the consist requirements including the movement of deadhead equipment is shown for each day of the week.
Of note are the trains handling G-85 piggyback cars of the railway Express Agency, and the Harlem River pickups. Here, the trains would stop on the main and, a switcher would add or pickup cars from the hind end, depending on the train's direction. Harlem River was a major express terminal for New York City. The one thing it doesn't explain is the fact that New Haven had a restriction that kept foreign lightweight passenger cars off its rails. All lightweight cars to operate over the New Haven had be equipped with stiff truck springs or have their softer springs blocked. This didn't apply to head end cars which were mostly heavyweights anyway. Baggage express cars from the PRR, Southern, Seaboard, Atlantic Coast Line and others were regular visitors to New Haven country but not the sleepers, coaches, parlors and diners. So were the PRR X-29 box-express cars, as the consist book will plainly show
All in all, it is an in depth look behind the scenes, as to how a passenger-heavy railroad got the job done. Check it out, there are many ways, to make your passenger service much more interesting and realistic.
Great Northern had the postal contract from Seattle to St.Paul. Mail storage cars and RPOs travelled first on their top train - the Fast Mail - and starting I believe in 1960 mail cars were handled on the head end of the Western Star.
However, GN didn't have the mail contract from St.Paul to Chicago, the Milwaukee Road did. So the GN passenger cars would go from St.Paul to Chicago pulled by Burlington Route engines, but the mail cars would be switched over to the Milwaukee to take the rest of the way. GN, CB&Q and Milwaukee all used St. Paul Union Depot.
Cars sometimes did carry through, so you might see a Milwaukee Road RPO on the Fast Mail or Western Star, or a GN car on the Milwaukee.
dehusman John-NYBW I am more interested in how cars like RPOs and diners were handled and more so on the shorter run joint trains. Normally shorter run trains weren't joint. Do you have an example of a "shorter run" joint train?
John-NYBW I am more interested in how cars like RPOs and diners were handled and more so on the shorter run joint trains.
I am more interested in how cars like RPOs and diners were handled and more so on the shorter run joint trains.
Normally shorter run trains weren't joint.
Do you have an example of a "shorter run" joint train?
The Pennsy and New Haven ran several joint trains on the Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington. Some of these continued beyond Washington to points south with a number of partners taking the southern leg. There were a number of different railroads that ran combined Chicago to Florida routes.
Since trains like the Twentieth Century Limited and others offering premium service, made fewer stops and normally did not have storage mail cars in the consist, the extra length above the more common sixty feet was often used to provide more storage space for sorted mail, and mail yet to be sorted. Six wheel trucks were used to provide a smoother ride for the postal employees who usually performed their duties standing up. This also provided greater safety as they moved about the car. The common mail sorting "apartment" sizes required by the postal regulations were 15, 30 and 60 linear feet. In most cases, this can be judged by the window arrangement and how much blank car side there was between the last window and the farthest side door. This would tell you where the storage area was.
Yes. six-wheel trucks under lightweight cars are very neat!
SP&S also had a lightweight RPO car with six wheel trucks, although the mail apartment was only 30', instead of the 60' of the NYC cars:
Come to think of it, UP's lightweight RPO's had six-wheel trucks when they had 30' apartments, but four-wheel trucks when they had the 60'.
Going farther down the rabbit hole, UP's 300 class boiler dorms are probably the only lightweight cars to have one of each.
I bought the full set of the Walthers 1948 20th Century Limited whenever it was that came out. It included an RPO. What's unique about it is that it's a full length car and even though it is a lightweight, it has 6 axles. I also have the MTH 1938 version of the 20th Century Limited and it has the same type of RPO but in light gray livery. The 20th Century made so few stops between New York and Chicago that it wouldn't have spent much time if any loading and unloading mail and express.
NHTX Most flagship trains did not carry RPOs due to the time needed to load/unload mail at intermediate stops.
Most flagship trains did not carry RPOs due to the time needed to load/unload mail at intermediate stops.
It would be interesting to do a count. The Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited did. The City of Portland did not. Trains 1 and 2 on the SP&S did. The Super Chief did.
Did they pass their RPOs and diners from one railroad to the next? Would a diner that originated at and supplied on its home rails stay on the train for its entire journey and would it be resupplied by the other railroad for the return trip or would it have been given enough supplies for the round trip by it's home road.
If you have even been on a railroad diner, you know that their storage area is very small. A diner might have to be resupplied several times on a longer trip.
Even on some single railroad passenger trains, diners would be dropped mid-trip and be picked up by a passenger train going in the opposite direction.
That's not a "supply" issue, its a "service" issue. For example there is no need to have a diner on a train that is operating between 8pm and 7am. There are no meals served during that time. Or if the majority of the passengers on one leg are not long distance passengers and so rarely eat meals there is no need to have a diner. In those cases the railroad will cut out the diner and then pick it up on the return trip. It might mean they need fewer diners.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
When you look at shorter haul, joint trains, you have to consider their schedules. A diner would usually serve the normal meal times and, be closed at night. Therefore, it made sense to set it out at some point, to be re-stocked for service in the return direction on a train that ran during meal times These setouts/pickups would usually take place between dinner and breakfast times, and if schedules permitted, on home rails. If a joint train crossed from its owning railroad to another at noon, it was highly unlikely patrons would have their meals interrupted by having to switch cars.
The RPO is a different animal in that it is governed by the postal contracts and regulations of the federal government. Most flagship trains did not carry RPOs due to the time needed to load/unload mail at intermediate stops. I never saw an off line RPO on either the New Haven or New York Central in Boston's South Station. New Haven interline trains (usually at night) that carried RPOs, only carried them as far as New York City's Pennsylvania Station. I can't recall seeing a foreign RPO in the PRR's Sunnyside yard although it handled foreign consists of the ACL, SAL, Southern, C&O and others that participated in the traffic between New York City and points north, south and west. It seems most RPOs did not venture off home rails.
The answers to your questions have to take in consideration railroad(s) involved, cities served, schedule-at what point in the run meal service is required, at what point does it make sense to set the car out. Fifty miles from the train's destination and the diner closes, why not just take it to the end of the run and deal with it there? Diners were expensive cars to own and operate and most railroads tried to keep the on home iron. In those cases where they were interchanged, the host road treated it like their own car.
The short answer would be, RPOs would be governed by the mail contract and, diners mainly by the degree of service offered and the schedule.
Not an answer to the question, but I have observed that, on the Empire Builder's run over the Burlington, it rarely or never contained two of its cars: the RPO and the 60 seat coach.
I understand about the transcontinental trains like the City of San Francisco and California Zephyr keeping the same passenger accomodation cars over the entire run over three railroads. I am more interested in how cars like RPOs and diners were handled and more so on the shorter run joint trains. Did they pass their RPOs and diners from one railroad to the next? Would a diner that originated at and supplied on its home rails stay on the train for its entire journey and would it be resupplied by the other railroad for the return trip or would it have been given enough supplies for the round trip by it's home road. Even on some single railroad passenger trains, diners would be dropped mid-trip and be picked up by a passenger train going in the opposite direction.
Pre Amtrak, there were many jointly operated passenger trains to destinations such as New York to Florida (PRR, RF&P, ACL, and SAL), Chicago to Florida (PRR), (L&N) ,and (ACL), (IC, CofG, ACL), Kansas City to Florida (SLSF, CofG, SAL). Going to the west coast, the famous California Zephyr was the collaboration of the CB&Q, D&RGW and WP. CB&Q also hauled the GN's Empire Builder as well as NP's North Coast Limited from Chicago to the Twin Cities.
Most of these trains were reserved seat only and when a passenger bought a seat on one, it was his to his destination, no matter whose car it took to get there. The Official Guide of the Railways is an invaluable source of information. Not only does it give the schedule and over whose railroad it runs but also the makeup of these trains, and which cars made the entire journey, and which cars were set out short of the destination.
Usually, the railroads formed a pool of cars to equip this train and some contributions were based on the carrier's share of the haul. Because these trains were trying to compete with the other modes of transportation, many of these trains were all streamlined equipment, did not handle mail and express and wore unified paint schemes. The Central of Georgia had some E-8s that were painted in IC orange and brown, to handle their portion of the Seminole.
As previously stated, yes, parlor cars, coaches and sleepers covered the entire run on most of these interline trains. If you can find an Official Guide from the 1950s or even the 1960s, you will find many lesser examples of interline passenger service, using run through equipment.
consis
The cars stayed with the train from start to finish. For example the Super Chief received cars from NYc and PRR in Chicago. They stayed with the train until it returned to Chicago. The train was stocked with enough provisions for its entire run and restocked prior to its return trip.
When a long distance passenger train traveled on the tracks of two or more railroads, would cars such as RPOs, diners, parlor cars, pass from one railroad to the next or would they be cut out at the junction point and stay on their home rails?
Also, would arrangements be made for one railroad to restock the dining car of another railroad for the return trip?