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Did SP Ever Double-Up Tenders for Steam?

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Posted by John-NYBW on Wednesday, January 12, 2022 7:59 AM

In the steam era, locos would have to stop more often to replenish water than they would for fuel so water stops were plentiful along the line. The auxiliary tender has been used primarily in modern excursion trains because those water towers are no longer available.

I went out to Wyoming a few years ago to see the first running of Big Boy 4014. I followed it from Cheyenne to Medicine Bow although with a line of cars over ten miles long on what was mostly a two lane highway, it was impossible to keep up, which is why I gave up the chase after the stop at Medicine Bow. The 4014 doubleheaded with 844 and both had auxiliary tenders painted in UP Armour Yellow. Even with their auxiliary tenders, I read the local fire department was going to refill all their tenders during their overnight stop which if I remember right was in Rawlins, WY. That gave them sufficient water to reach the Golden Spike 150th anniversary celebration in Utah.

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Posted by NHTX on Saturday, January 8, 2022 10:59 AM

      Precisely, the examples cited are some of the main reasons we are diesel powered today.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 8, 2022 9:25 AM

The B&O tank was an interesting experiment, a bit analogous to some uses of DP: it distributed the axle load of two six-wheel tender trucks more sensibly using common and flexible freight-type trucks.

PRR canceled the V1 in part for its humongous water rate.  If diesels had not become preferred in the postwar years, you'd have seen many more A-tanks as the necessary water rate to make high sustained HP was complicated by increased need for boiler-water quality not easily (if at all) provideable in track pans.

I have seen a diagram for a Lehigh Valley 4-4-6-4, presumably built with much design in common with the PRR Q2, and it shows two little 2-axle groups of wheels at the back.  I have no doubt that represents a water tender implemented as an articulated expansion of what is probably a large-bunker tender (perhaps like the NYC 64T design for the C1a)

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Posted by Attuvian1 on Saturday, January 8, 2022 2:34 AM

NHTX

     It was presumed the OP was asking about regular service during the age of steam, up until it was dead on the SP.  Steam in the diesel age in excursion/ fantrip service more often than not, ran with multiple "tenders", due to the fact that as soon as the fires were out, the infrastructure that supported steam was eliminated by most railroads.  SP shut off the oil in 1957 so, when 4449 returned to the rails, there were few if any, water plugs, or tanks.  In the post mainline steam years, water was usually provided by the local fire department in en route towns.

 

Many restored steamers across the land are used for short, end-of-the-year holiday excursions.  Here in Portland, these are pulled along the east side of the Willamette River between Oaks Park and the Oregon Rail Heritage Center, about 2.5 miles to the north.  Unless one is laid up for boiler inspection or overhaul, the two engines that lead these short consists generally alternate between the 4449 and the SP&S 700.  Eight or nine leisurely round trips per day on the three weekends following Thanksgiving.

Between runs, there are always railfans and curious families at Oaks Park that line up along the Springwater Trail, immediately adjacent (a dozen feet?) to the right of way.  Most of them gathered beside the behemoths, of course.  Sensational in every respect.

But the curiosity is extended when an engine is uncoupled from the string of heritage cars and chugs south under the Sellwood Bridge to a fire hydrant a quarter mile away at a neighborhood grade crossing.  It's a rather private moment when the fireman hauls out his hydrant spanner and fire hose to give his baby a drink.  Can you hear her say, "Aaah!", before she backs up for another haul?

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Posted by NHTX on Saturday, January 8, 2022 12:06 AM

     It was presumed the OP was asking about regular service during the age of steam, up until it was dead on the SP.  Steam in the diesel age in excursion/ fantrip service more often than not, ran with multiple "tenders", due to the fact that as soon as the fires were out, the infrastructure that supported steam was eliminated by most railroads.  SP shut off the oil in 1957 so, when 4449 returned to the rails, there were few if any, water plugs, or tanks.  In the post mainline steam years, water was usually provided by the local fire department in en route towns.

     UP has seen fit to outfit the Big Boy with two auxiliary tenders because of the lack of trackside water supplies and the amount consumed.  They also converted it to burn No. 6 heating oil instead of coal, since No. 6 is much more readily available, and you no longer have the ash disposal and cinder problems associated with coal.  This is why Big Boy operates with TWO auxiliary tenders.

     As jjdamnit noted, most railroads went to bigger tenders, even during the steam years, to increase range, and reduce facilities.  Ask a Pennsy fan about the 16 wheel, "coast-to-coast" tenders applied to some of their K-4 Pacifics.  The tenders eclipsed the locomotives they trailed.  Deep into the diesel age, N&W placed "canteens" behind its Y class 2-8-8-2s to eliminate water stops.  A typical water stop could consume a half hour or more. In many cases, the locomotive would cut off from the train and, run ahead to the tank, take on water, then back up to the train  after the tender was filled.  All this time, coal or oil was still burning.  B&O had some tenders with extended water tanks that were so long, they had a four wheeled truck under the middle, in addition to the ones at each end.  Eliminating water stops, and extending the distance between those that remained, was a never-ending goal of the railroads during the steam era.

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Posted by jjdamnit on Friday, January 7, 2022 11:05 AM

Hello All,

Great info everyone!!!

As has been said, "There is a prototype for everything."

In the steam era the prevailing attitude was "build it bigger" rather than link multi-units for more power as in the diesel era.

I suspect a more common practice was to make tenders larger to accommodate more fuel and water over the use of auxiliary tenders.

That being said, there are obvious exceptions to my opinion.

Even in the early diesel era the "Big Blow" turbine locomotive had a fuel tender to satiate its huge thirst.

Just my thoughts...

What a great modeling opportunity!

A team track of tenders next to the caboose track.

There seems to be no shortage of locomotive-less tenders on eBay.

I wonder if this will produce a run on them?

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by snjroy on Friday, January 7, 2022 9:32 AM

Auxiliary tenders can be seen on excursion trains in Canada. IIRC, it's basically because there are few - if any - water sources on the line to feed the tender. I suspect that's the reason for the auxiliary tender on the Daylight as seen on the photos.

Simon

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Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, January 7, 2022 8:21 AM

Auxiliary water tender with SP 4449 in 2009 from http://www.billsrailroadpage.com/SP44493.shtml

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by dennis461 on Friday, January 7, 2022 7:48 AM

Perhaps you should be looking for

Auxiliary water tender.

 

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Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, January 7, 2022 5:50 AM

NHTX
After searching all of my SP books and DVDs, I found no evidence that SP used auxilliary tenders, even in the desert regions.  It would seem they would be employed between Yuma AZ and San Antonio, TX. but nothing was found.  Both Santa Fe and SP, wasted no time in dieselizing their desert lines, due to water issues.

I don't have access to my library to check, but  remember reading that when the Sunset Route first opened the SP trains often hauled more non-revenue water tank cars than cars of freight. This lasted for a short time until water sources were developed.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by Attuvian1 on Thursday, January 6, 2022 10:21 PM

Well, okay, guys, that's enough for me.  It was kind of an out-of-the-blue notion anyway.

Thanks for your input.

John

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Posted by NHTX on Thursday, January 6, 2022 5:29 PM

     After searching all of my SP books and DVDs, I found no evidence that SP used auxilliary tenders, even in the desert regions.  It would seem they would be employed between Yuma AZ and San Antonio, TX. but nothing was found.  Both Santa Fe and SP, wasted no time in dieselizing their desert lines, due to water issues.

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Posted by Colorado Ray on Monday, January 3, 2022 8:49 PM

Hard to say it never happened, but I've never seen double tenders on any of the pictures or videos that I have on the SP.  

 

Ray

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Did SP Ever Double-Up Tenders for Steam?
Posted by Attuvian1 on Monday, January 3, 2022 6:14 PM

The subject line about covers it.  Pertinent details it would be a bonus to any positive response.

John

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