Hey (sorry if this is in the wrong forum), I was wondering if it would be possible to use bethgon coalporters as gravel cars on my layout hypothetically. Is this prototipical?
Railroad would be Canadian National if that matters
Thanks in advance!
Gravel is denser than coal, which the Bethgons were designed to carry. So if you did, you would have to fill them only about half full. The cars couldn't handle the weight of a full load of gravel. Also, gondolas like the Bethgon don't have unloading doors on the bottom (or else they'd be hoppers). So you'd need a rotary dumper to unload them -- certainly unusual for a gravel operation, but not outside the realm of possibility.
to the Forums!
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Salad, welcome to the forums.
There are lots of experts on the forum who can answer questions, so I hope you will let us know more about your layout. We also love pictures!
York1 John
They would be uniquely horrible to load gravel in.
Very few (if any) aggregate unloaders use rotary dumps. Aggregates are gravity dumped or scooped out using a backhoe or shovel. Coal porters have no bottom outlets so they can't be gravity dumped and the curved bottoms make them impossible to completely empty using a backhoe.
Steel gons with a flat bottom could theoretically be moved to rock service, many are in scrap metal service, but the other problem is that aggregate tends to be denser than coal and so a carload of rock is heavier than a carload of coal. You could use a coal gon in rock service, you just couldn't fill it all the way.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
http://www.protoloads.com/herzog/
Ed
Those Herzog cars are heavily rebuilt as ballast hoppers though.
A straight "BethGON" car would be singulary useless for ballast since you can't dump it anywhere.
A regular flat-bottom mill gon would be more useful than a "BethGon" type with sloped and rounded floors, as you could at least unload that car with a excavator type machine in the car to apply rock to the sides of the track, but still really not great for actually doing ballast work.
Really anything other than a proper ballast car is less than ideal.
Edit - I guess the original post only mentioned gravel, not necesarily ballast. So yeah, any type of regular discharging hopper. Some operations do load/unload standard gondolas with a backhoe. BethGon, very not ideal in any way.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
The closest I have seen to a hopper for coal service used for rock trains are two and 3 bay cars loaded only half and only over each truck. The only stone is what falls to the middle due to angle of repose.
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Hello All,
As has been mentioned ballast cars are a special breed.
Atlas makes a 70-ton Hart Ballast Car in HO.
These have positional unloading doors for either between the rail (gauge side) or outside of the rails (field side).
Walthers makes a Difco dump car, which has been used in M.O.W. operations to stage ballast alongside the track.
Then the M.O.W. crew, using specialized cars, place the ballast where needed along the tracks.
As has been posted, yes, you can use a coal porter car to achieve the same results.
This might be a solution a smaller railroad would use with a limited budget and resources.
As the saying goes, "There is a prototype for every situation."
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit As has been mentioned ballast cars are a special breed.
Well, sorta. Here's one made from a PS-2 covered hopper, right next to one made from NOT a PS-2 covered hopper (ACF?) and another one the looks pretty Santa Fe-ish (paint color):
Fun to model, I think!
7j43kjjdamnit As has been mentioned ballast cars are a special breed. Well, sorta. Here's one made from a PS-2 covered hopper, right next to one made from NOT a PS-2 covered hopper (ACF?) and another one the looks pretty Santa Fe-ish (paint color):
All of which have been extensively rebuilt to not only remove the roof but replace the discharge outlets with the special ballast gates that dump to either side of the rails, not just to the middle.
So yes, special breed, with specialized discharge gates.
To spread ballast with a standard center-discharge hopper is kinda painful.
Remove roof. Change outlet gates. Leave car structure alone.
Extensive.
jjdamnitAs has been mentioned ballast cars are a special breed.
Maybe, maybe not. Back in 1980 I helped unload a whole ballast train that was nothing but MP standard quad hoppers. The gang would put a chain around the hopper door latches so the door would only open so far and then put a tie in front of the wheels of the truck behind the doors.
They would crack open the hoppers and move the train ahead at walking speed. The ballast would come out of the hoppers and the tie would scrape it off level with the tops of the rails.
When one bay was empty they would move the chains to the next bay and repeat the process. When one car was finished they would move the tie back to the next car and repeat the process.
It was a hot summer day along the Arkansas River and everybody was sweaty and covered with ballast dust.
We finished unloading and ran to the next siding, ran around the train (back to back SD40-2's) and headed back south. All the guys on the gang were lounging on the "porches" of the trailing SD40, that is until we got to the area where the ballast had been dumped.
In the ballasted area there were a few places where the ballast was above the top of the rail. The snow plow of the lead engine would pick up a few of the pieces of ballast and launch them into the air. Pretty soon, ballast was raining down on the trailing unit.
I looked back at the trailing unit and all the gangs were jammed in the cab of the engine to get out of the granite rain. All you could see in the cab windows were eyes in a field of grey because everybody was coated with ballast dust.
I am a big fan of Coal Porter. He is one of my favorite lyricists, along with Johnny Mercer and Lorenz Hart.
In case you didn't know, Coal Train recorded "Every Time We Say Goodbye" by Coal Porter.
Great thanks for the info! (sorry for late reply)
Salad,
If you simply must have a Coal Porter on your layout, there is a simple way to justify it appearing in a general freight train. Down on Southern Pacific's Sunset Route, back in the 1980s, I was photographing the cars in passing trains and, there was a round-bottom, rotary-dump, unit train coal gondola (no hoppers, classed GT) coupled between a Cotton Belt boxcar, and a covered hopper. The notation on the train's consist was, "FBO". This stood for "Formerly, Bad Order" which means at some point in its journey, this car developed a defect that required it to be left behind, until said defect was corrected by the car department.
Usually, each passing siding has a track, or tracks where these cars may be left behind, until repairs are made. This is a perfect reason for those cars that really have no logical reason to appear in your trains, to be present. I have seen these tracks holding every type of freight car, even locomotives or a passenger car, if they travel that route, awaiting attention to some issue that caused it to have to be left behind. Bad bearings, siezed traction motors, defective trucks, or brake system problems are among the defects that make it necessary to set out these "bad orders" and what is set out, must eventually be picked up-after the necessary repairs are made!
NHTX Salad, If you simply must have a Coal Porter on your layout, there is a simple way to justify it appearing in a general freight train. Down on Southern Pacific's Sunset Route, back in the 1980s, I was photographing the cars in passing trains and, there was a round-bottom, rotary-dump, unit train coal gondola (no hoppers, classed GT) coupled between a Cotton Belt boxcar, and a covered hopper. The notation on the train's consist was, "FBO". This stood for "Formerly, Bad Order" which means at some point in its journey, this car developed a defect that required it to be left behind, until said defect was corrected by the car department. Usually, each passing siding has a track, or tracks where these cars may be left behind, until repairs are made. This is a perfect reason for those cars that really have no logical reason to appear in your trains, to be present. I have seen these tracks holding every type of freight car, even locomotives or a passenger car, if they travel that route, awaiting attention to some issue that caused it to have to be left behind. Bad bearings, siezed traction motors, defective trucks, or brake system problems are among the defects that make it necessary to set out these "bad orders" and what is set out, must eventually be picked up-after the necessary repairs are made!
Still happens today. I often see hoppers/gons that are normally seen in unit train service in manifest trains. Loads and empties, for just those reasons mentioned. The cars developed defects that caused them to be set out on line until they could be repaired.
Once repaired, they get picked up by a local freight or a junk manifest that does intermediate work where no local is assigned. The now repaired car(s) get forwarded by manifest trains and locals to where they need to go.
Jeff
I see this on the CN, at Honey Creek, WI. There is a stub end siding, usually used by MOW, that occasionally has "bad order" cars, caught by a defect detector a mile north. I've seen different hoppers, box cars and auto racks.
Mike.
My You Tube