Where on the prototype are concrete ties used? I know I have seen them in some stations but that is about it. I came across a video of a guy painting track and he had used concrete ties for his entire mainline. Is that a modern practice?
Rick
Concrete ties were something of a poor-conditions expedient up to the construction of the New Tokaido Line. They were the darling of high-speed design after that -- with the understanding they are unworkable without both good elastomer padding underneath and a good elastic clamping system like Pandrol holding the rail in place.
I believe all current HSR uses concrete ties or equivalent.
They have not proven to do well in heavy freight service. Even when the tie-to-rail connection is optimized, the ties and ballast grind each other to early fouling, and even the slightest derailment that would only notch a wooden tie will irreparably crack a prestressed or post-tensioned concrete one.
Overmod They have not proven to do well in heavy freight service. Even when the tie-to-rail connection is optimized, the ties and ballast grind each other to early fouling, and even the slightest derailment that would only notch a wooden tie will irreparably crack a prestressed or post-tensioned concrete one.
That's not what I like to hear, CN is still buying loads of them for new mainline track construction, and are "salvaging" old used ones for branchline rehab and yard track construction, some of those have sat in massive piles beside the ROW for years (a good number of them have failed not long after installation, causing patches of the grade to look like a wet concrete spill).
Concrete ties have much higher lateral strength than wood ones, so they are preferred for curves around here. They cannot be used at crossings, as road salt corrodes them.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
When the UP took over the C&NW and its east/west mainline out of Chicago in 1995 they soon put down concrete ties on one of the two mains with the intent of doing the same with the other main. For a while it worked great but that particular vendor of concrete ties has quality control issues and soon that main was out of service. Some of the failures were truly scary looking -- total failure of the end of the concrete tie so NOTHING was holding rail in place for many feet. And other ties you could see the rebar that is inside the tie sticking out. I saw this at Rochelle IL near the famous railroad park, further west at Dixon IL and on to Nelson IL, and I suspect the same was true east of Rochelle and west of Nelson
I believe the contract UP had with that vendor called for a refund which they got (and which if memory serves put the vendor out of business). But significantly, they replaced the bad concrete ties with new concrete ties. I have also seen concrete ties being put down on one of the BNSF mains coming into Galesburg IL.
In the case of the UP it seemed evident that the concrete tie was at fault but i suspect there is a learning curve for track laying crews too. Concrete ties need more preparation of subroadbed than just yanking wood ties out and inserting concrete. I have read that concrete ties do best in a different sort of ballast.
On the CN's ex-Illinois Central line running east/west through Iowa, I saw some bad tie failure where they had experienced with a sort of particle board or pressed board tie. Pretty significant failure.
They are expensive (in first cost but unlike other ties, have a sigificant scrap or resale value) and call for yet another specialized roadbed but I have seen gondolas full of steel ties on the BNSF and have seen some installed on the BNSF around Galesburg IL.
Dave Nelson
Amtrak also dealt with a huge order of bad concrete ties on the NEC that failed too early.
About ten years ago, I saw mountains of them along the CSX (ex-B&O) west of Martinsburg, WV. My understanding that they'd tried them out there without success. Here in Alexandria, VA, there's a crossover that has concrete ties, but the rest is wood. Sort of backwards of what I've seen in other conrete tie areas, where the crossovers have wood.
NittanyLionHere in Alexandria, VA, there's a crossover that has concrete ties, but the rest is wood. Sort of backwards of what I've seen in other conrete tie areas, where the crossovers have wood.
The way I see it, wood is wood, timber is timber.
Precast, and if used, prestressed, concrete ties are too susceptible to the raw materials used in the concrete mix, the proper amount of additives, the proper mixing, placement, finishing, and curing.
Too many things can go wrong in one or more of the processes, which can lead to the failure of the finish product.
I live close to the former WC, SOO, back to WC, and now CN main line between Canada and the rest of world, and the last few times I have seen tie replacements, it's been wood.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewiPrecast, and if used, prestressed, concrete ties are too susceptible to the raw materials used in the concrete mix, the proper amount of additives, the proper mixing, placement, finishing, and curing.
To date, the only track that can cost-effectively hold top-down Class 9 geometry and also support HAL is concrete, but it does not use ties and is more complicated to build and align.
I believe that concrete ties (intended for use on non-high-speed lines, both freight and passenger) are one of those ideas that "looked real good on paper", but in practice have a record that is mediocre at best.
A wooden tie does more than just hold the rails in gauge. It also acts as a "shock absorber" between the forces of the train above, and the immovable roadbed below. How much "shock absorption" does concrete have?
For lightweight high-speed passenger trains, the train-to-rail forces aren't that great (at least when compared to freight). Thus, the concrete ties can work.
But constantly pound them with coal trains, grain trains, general merchandise (complete with flat wheeled cars)... concrete is going to crumble under the stress over time, particularly if there's moisture underneath them.
On the New Haven line, or on Amtrak's Hell Gate line, you could see patches where the concrete ties were just crumbling on the bottom... they'd be "pasty white" when dry, from all the concrete dust. Amtrak had to take them out of the three East Haven tunnels, and put wood ties back in -- the track was ready to fall apart.
What's needed is something man-made that has the resilience of a wooden tie. I don't think they've yet found anything that fills the bill...
dknelson When the UP took over the C&NW and its east/west mainline out of Chicago in 1995 they soon put down concrete ties on one of the two mains with the intent of doing the same with the other main. For a while it worked great but that particular vendor of concrete ties has quality control issues and soon that main was out of service. Some of the failures were truly scary looking -- total failure of the end of the concrete tie so NOTHING was holding rail in place for many feet. And other ties you could see the rebar that is inside the tie sticking out. I saw this at Rochelle IL near the famous railroad park, further west at Dixon IL and on to Nelson IL, and I suspect the same was true east of Rochelle and west of Nelson I believe the contract UP had with that vendor called for a refund which they got (and which if memory serves put the vendor out of business). But significantly, they replaced the bad concrete ties with new concrete ties. I have also seen concrete ties being put down on one of the BNSF mains coming into Galesburg IL. In the case of the UP it seemed evident that the concrete tie was at fault but i suspect there is a learning curve for track laying crews too. Concrete ties need more preparation of subroadbed than just yanking wood ties out and inserting concrete. I have read that concrete ties do best in a different sort of ballast. On the CN's ex-Illinois Central line running east/west through Iowa, I saw some bad tie failure where they had experienced with a sort of particle board or pressed board tie. Pretty significant failure. They are expensive (in first cost but unlike other ties, have a sigificant scrap or resale value) and call for yet another specialized roadbed but I have seen gondolas full of steel ties on the BNSF and have seen some installed on the BNSF around Galesburg IL. Dave Nelson
Concrete ties don't like mud. If you can't keep the roadbed "dry" the mud holes eat up the ties. They did long stretches in Iowa as well. (Even at grade crossings.) One stretches they were running late on the project, so they stopped undercutting the existing ballast. That 25 miles went bad fast and had to be replaced within a year or two. This time they undercut the track.
There have been a couple wholesale replacement projects and a more smaller spot replacement projects. The spot projects have almost always been in the same places. Where the mud holes seem to develope.
Jeff
OldEngineman I believe that concrete ties (intended for use on non-high-speed lines, both freight and passenger) are one of those ideas that "looked real good on paper", but in practice have a record that is mediocre at best. A wooden tie does more than just hold the rails in gauge. It also acts as a "shock absorber" between the forces of the train above, and the immovable roadbed below. How much "shock absorption" does concrete have? For lightweight high-speed passenger trains, the train-to-rail forces aren't that great (at least when compared to freight). Thus, the concrete ties can work. But constantly pound them with coal trains, grain trains, general merchandise (complete with flat wheeled cars)... concrete is going to crumble under the stress over time, particularly if there's moisture underneath them. On the New Haven line, or on Amtrak's Hell Gate line, you could see patches where the concrete ties were just crumbling on the bottom... they'd be "pasty white" when dry, from all the concrete dust. Amtrak had to take them out of the three East Haven tunnels, and put wood ties back in -- the track was ready to fall apart. What's needed is something man-made that has the resilience of a wooden tie. I don't think they've yet found anything that fills the bill...
What about steel ties? In June of 2012, I rode a Norfolk Southern coal train, on track of the Kiski Junction Railroad.
The right-of-way is former PRR track, and the Kiski ran about 6 miles from Schenley Pa. to an Allegheny-Ludlum plant, from which they hauled scrap metal. I don't recall the date, but Rosebud Coal opened a new coal mine in Logansport, Pa, and decided to extend the Kiski's track from Schenley to Logansport, about 9 miles.Norfolk Southern operated on the other side of the Allegheny River, but crossed on a bridge at Schenley, originally to pick-up loads of scrap from the Kiski.Once the new mine was in operation, and the track extended to it (cwr on steel ties), NS would put a train of 130 hoppers, plus locos, at Schenley, and leave it for the Kiski crew to run to the load-out. The loaded train then returned to Schenley, where a NS crew would take it away. The bridge has been, for several years, embargoed, so no more coal trains from that mine.
Here's a couple photos of the steel ties....
...and a view from the cab of the load-out...
As far as I'm aware, there are no plans to repair or replace the bridge, so this little gem, an ALCo S-1, built in 1943, remains trapped...
According to a good friend, who was the COO of the Kiski at that time, it was the preferred power for the scrap trains, as it was a better puller than a GP7, which was also owned by the Kiski.
Wayne
I often find it amusing when I hear about wonderful modern advances in technology only to discover that others have trodden this path before.
Here are a few photos of concrete and steel tie experiments carried out by the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad. Note the date on the Percival tie, August 1906 and the date on the photo, 1908 so it would seem these ties had been in place for two years?
Percival_concrete-tie by Edmund, on Flickr
Then there was the Bruckner concrete tie of 1911. Still trying.
Bruckner_concrete-tie-1911 by Edmund, on Flickr
Pretty neat-looking design. In some of these they seem to use a wooden "shock absorber" under the rail base.
Finally the Carnegie Steel Tie, 1915:
Carnegi_steel-tie by Edmund, on Flickr
A hundred years ago — amazing.
More photos can be found here.
Cheers, Ed
doctorwayne What about steel ties? In June of 2012, I rode a Norfolk Southern coal train, on track of the Kiski Junction Railroad.
I just finished up an engineering project for a client which involved a new industrial spur off the NS mainline (actually a spur track out to the industry). The plant uses steel ties throughout their facility, and the current main is built with steel ties. When we submitted to NS, we learned that NS doesn't use steel ties anymore. According to those I spoke with, the issue isn't the ties themselves - they work great and last a long time. The problem is that with steel ties it is harder to correctly tamp the ballast to fully support the tie. Steel ties are shaped kind of like an upside down river barge, and if the ballast isn't properly settled against the underside of the top plate, they don't perform well. NS did allow the new turnout to be built using steel ties, but only because the existing track has them.
-Dan
The Class I railroads use concrete ties for high speed/high volume traffic like intermodal trains.
Amtrak's NEC uses concrete ties because it's the standard for high speed rail usage worldwide.
Newer commuter railroads and light rail systems, as well as many state-owned Amtrak-run regional lines also use concrete ties on their trackage because having concrete ties and coninuously-welded rail results in lower maintenance costs and a longer lifespan compared to wooden ties.For more lightly-used local lines, yards and industrial spurs, concrete ties aren't worth the capital cost, so they remain to have wooden ties.
In Colorado, the heavily used Pueblo to Denver BNSF/UP shared trackage is mostly concrete ties now. I'm not surprised, as quality wood ties have to be shipped in.
Fred W