I have brought up these Royal train cars in the past and brought them up again as I wanted to focus on the roof this time. I have learned more by doing so. As time goes by there seems to be more information coming along.
I had plans for even earlier passenger cars where it showed heavy layers of felt under the canvas tops. Maintenance of these rooves must have been costly.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
ATLANTIC CENTRALEveryone in this discussion needs to read this:...
Well it certainly made me thankful for my plastic model passenger cars, and the fact that they're not out in all sorts of weather, rotting away in areas unseen until it's too late.It also makes me mindful of the work that railroad museums and tourist railways are constantly doing to keep their operations viable.
Wayne
Everyone in this discussion needs to read this:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24551
Sheldon
Let's be clear, lots of passenger car roofs were exposed painted metal with no additional covering.
Gloss means very little, roofing paints come in gloss finishes, even 100 years ago. And, once the roof is sealed, the roofing paints can be painted over with the same paints the metal is painted with.
My opinion is based on what I can see in those photos, and what I have seen on other historic rail equipment, nothing more, nothing less.
It has always been my understanding that sometimes these coatings were applied when cars were rebuilt, and sometimes as a "repair" process to solve leaking rusty roofs.
You might try model airplane tissue or the shrink wrap they use on RC planes
Stretching the roof panels over a jig prior to riveting:
Trains_BuildingCar002 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
This question (or something similar) came up here a couple of years back:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/272542.aspx
If you look at the pictures posted by BATMAN, the roofs look awfully shiny. I'd guess they are metal of some kind, not canvas. There's also a good picture taken recently of the car "Pacific" where it looks like rows of rivets on the roof. Now the Royal Train was a one-time deal; so I suppose they might have temporarily put some type of covering over the cars - the cars were totally rebuilt inside and out to make them ready for HRH - that was taken off when the cars went back to CN and CP.
Overmod The more I look at this, the more it looks like lagging -- an outer riveted shell with insulation under it the length of the roof. That might explain the mushroomlike overhang at the sides and over the end better than any alternative. Many years ago, I wondered if the principle of the Land Rover 'safari roof' could be adapted to a railroad passenger car -- this surprisingly effective device is just a piece of comparatively thin sheet metal, painted white, 'stood off' on small-dimensioned thermal posts from an underlying dark roof. This uses the 'trapped air' as a barrier against solar conductive transfer while minimizing any actual solar gain absorbed and reradiated by the thin metal shield. You could easily use multiple layers on the established 'thermal shield' principle, too. Some manufactured housing in the '30s used an actively circulated version of this similar to what modern ridge vents and insulating channels between roof joists do: the idea is to minimize actual heat transfer through the "roof" either to the AC ducting or the actual space high in the car interior. This is sealed at the 'eaves' so I suspect some form of packed insulation, not a dead-air space or circulation, is present. Be interesting to see what was used if this is accurate; it is very much in the era that understood things like sealed-dry-nitrogen multipane windows for railroad cars.
The more I look at this, the more it looks like lagging -- an outer riveted shell with insulation under it the length of the roof. That might explain the mushroomlike overhang at the sides and over the end better than any alternative.
Many years ago, I wondered if the principle of the Land Rover 'safari roof' could be adapted to a railroad passenger car -- this surprisingly effective device is just a piece of comparatively thin sheet metal, painted white, 'stood off' on small-dimensioned thermal posts from an underlying dark roof. This uses the 'trapped air' as a barrier against solar conductive transfer while minimizing any actual solar gain absorbed and reradiated by the thin metal shield. You could easily use multiple layers on the established 'thermal shield' principle, too. Some manufactured housing in the '30s used an actively circulated version of this similar to what modern ridge vents and insulating channels between roof joists do: the idea is to minimize actual heat transfer through the "roof" either to the AC ducting or the actual space high in the car interior.
This is sealed at the 'eaves' so I suspect some form of packed insulation, not a dead-air space or circulation, is present. Be interesting to see what was used if this is accurate; it is very much in the era that understood things like sealed-dry-nitrogen multipane windows for railroad cars.
The over hang would most likely be that the original clerestory roof was not removed, so the new panels had to come down over the top batten rail of the old roof. And, some addtional structure may have been added first for their attachment.
Then the new sheet metal, then a batten rail for that, then the waterproof coating.
BATMAN Thanks all for your thoughts. I have determined that line across the top is a rain trough, not a poorly fitted canvas top. Also after looking at more pics online I think Wayne is correct saying metal is the material being used on this coach. Some others look like canvas. I wonder how silk span would look? I have some leftover from my R/C plane days. Labelle models use a block of wood on their models to get those rounded ends, you just sand them to shape. I think someone well versed at 3D printing could knock something like that off as well. I have been talking to some 3D people on a 3D printing FB site and they said easy peasy.
Thanks all for your thoughts. I have determined that line across the top is a rain trough, not a poorly fitted canvas top. Also after looking at more pics online I think Wayne is correct saying metal is the material being used on this coach. Some others look like canvas. I wonder how silk span would look? I have some leftover from my R/C plane days.
Labelle models use a block of wood on their models to get those rounded ends, you just sand them to shape. I think someone well versed at 3D printing could knock something like that off as well. I have been talking to some 3D people on a 3D printing FB site and they said easy peasy.
Yes the curved horizontal line is a rain gutter, so are the short pieces on the sides over the steps, typical for a car like that with either type of roof, arched or clerestory.
Understand this, a roof covering of canvas and roofing paint is just the waterproof coating. Under it would be wood or metal and the canvas becomes fully adheared once painted as the paint soaks thru. It would never be loose, or even stretched, it is glued on with paint.
I you look closely at the picture directly from the end, there are two vertical battens that are exactly where the clerestory roof would have been. BUT, there are no fasteners visable, and there are small irregularities near the battens, suggesting that the roof was converted with metal panels, then covered to make it water proof. Possibly just with paint, but more likely with paint and fabric which would hide and seal the fasteners in a more reliable way.
As the paint layers in this process are built up, the texture of the fabric becomes obscured.
And likewise the side view shows battens that would represent each sheet of metal used to modify the roof, which then must be joined and sealed.
Clearly I can't say for sure, but it looks like a painted on roof coating to me. we put them on buildings all the time, and I have seen them on historic rail equipment. Maybe I noticed because I was already familiar with the process.
One of the distinct advantages of these systems is ease of repair or recoating. Simply repair obvious substrate damage apply one or two additional coats and/or a fabric patch.
Again, can't say for sure. And again, at 1/87, I would simply paint it an appropriate color with a satin finish for it to look new, or flat if it had some age.
As for how to make the roof, well I built a few Walthers wood and metal kits back in the day and shaped a few wood roof ends with a file and sandpaper.
wjstix I don't think I'd call the passenger cars in the picture of the King and Queen as being "streamlined" or anything like that. Some railroads, like Great Northern, did convert heavyweight cars to better match their postwar streamlined cars, and they generally had a much flatter roof. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1009504 I don't know that I've ever seen cars with this type of roof; they appear more like heavyweight archroof cars like SP used. My guess is the railroad had added ducts on the sides of the clerestory roof when adding air conditioning (pretty common in the period) and decided to add an overall covering to it. There would have to be some type of superstructure under the covering, it wouldn't hold it's shape otherwise.
I don't think I'd call the passenger cars in the picture of the King and Queen as being "streamlined" or anything like that. Some railroads, like Great Northern, did convert heavyweight cars to better match their postwar streamlined cars, and they generally had a much flatter roof.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1009504
I don't know that I've ever seen cars with this type of roof; they appear more like heavyweight archroof cars like SP used. My guess is the railroad had added ducts on the sides of the clerestory roof when adding air conditioning (pretty common in the period) and decided to add an overall covering to it. There would have to be some type of superstructure under the covering, it wouldn't hold it's shape otherwise.
Yes, it is just called an arched roof, and was moderately common on heavyweight cars. Mostly coaches, combines, baggage, RPO's, but also on other types of cars, and of course very recognizable from Harriman cars.
And yes, many clerestory roof cars were partly or fully converted to arch roofs to add air conditioning.
And some had various end treatments to blend them with lower streamlined roofs.
And some where simply metal, and some were covered with fabric and roofing paint.
Picture of models of Royal Train 1939
https://www.themetrains.com/royal-train-m-weaver-o-gauge.htm
David
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The pictures I have of the modernised CNR cars look like it's done with sheet metal. If you're careful with the application of solvent-type cement, .005" sheet styrene should do the trick.
Another option would be to put strip styrene right below the overhang of the clerestory roof as a support for gluing, then form .010" sheet styrene , likely in not-full-length sections, to simulate the curved roof. I used that method to fabricate air conditioning duct on this shortened Athearn car...
Even simpler would be to remove the Rivarossi roof completely, then cut .010" or .015" sheet styrene to the proper width to create the arched roof, then cement .020"x.125" strip material to the underside of both edges. Fit one side into the car, curve the roof material, then slip it into place on the opposite side.
You'll also need to add arched ends to fill the space between the car's ends and the new roof.
Here are some photos of a few prototypes...
Miscou Island, at the top of the picture below, shows the arced roof and extensions of the car's end...
Caribou, centre below, is similar to Miscou island
Brantford, top photo below, sports a "turtle" roof...
Whitepool and Whitecourt, centre and bottom below, are other examples...
Fort Lawrence, top photo below, is another somewhat different example...
Canvas and roofing paint, black and silver being most popular, was a staple of both wood and heavyweight roof repair and upgrades.
As was "converting" clerestory roofs into arched roofs, both being rather common on the B&O, which I model.
As soon as the original metal on heavyweights became problematic, out came the canvas and paint.
Personally, I don't put too much effort into the texture, just paint the roof a slighly "grimmy" black.
The B&O rebuilt dozens of heavyweights into "streamlined" cars, and refurbished lots of heavyweights for decades, many had these kinds of roofs.
And the idea is far from dead. I believe all the cars at Strasburg have fabric or rubber roofing.
As a historic restoration contractor, we work on flat roofs and one of the technologies we use is built up acrylic roofing systems. Heavy synthetic fabric is glued to plywood with acrylic roofing paint, multiple coats build up weather resistance and actually make one of the best walkable rooftop deck surfaces you can have.
Everything old is new again.
I suspect this is canvas with some sort of material like roof coating. Most of what's under there is likely to be air-conditioning ducts retrofitted between the clerestory and the edge of the roof, in the clearance gage. What you're observing is just 'patching in' the gaps between these ducts to give an overall arch-roof effect, kinda like putting a vinyl brougham roof on a '70s car.
Now, if this is a 'no holds barred' Royal Train where cost is little object... well, it could be a higher-value material, to be removed when the trip is complete...
I'm going to guess waxed canvas. Leather would have been hugely expensive and not fared will with rain and sun.
Back in the day, my mother made all my clothes and she could have whipped up something that would fit and you could spray with dullcote or maybe waterproofing product. Sadly her day has come and gone and she didn't teach me squat about sewing.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
So I am still pondering how to get streamline roofs for the Royal Train I want to emulate. Looking once again at photos I noticed there seems to be a cover pulled over the old roof to give it the streamline roof appearance. So I did some more digging and these coverings were quite common with many RRs wanting to spruce up the fleet. Apparently from what I have read, the old roof outline complete with rivets was visible through the covering so I wonder what they used as a cover, canvas maybe?
How do you think I could copy this effect if I got some old Rivarossi coaches to mess with.
Also, someone mentioned that Shapeways makes the streamlined roof for these, I can't find anything on those.
Any help appreciated.