richhotrainI am trying to figure out a way to show the forum members my new layout.
I got enough questions about my layout that it prompted me to offer a Layout (room) tour, with lots of photos....
Whenever I make some progress on the layout (which hasn't happened for a while) I add new photos and some explanation of what has been done. That brings the thread back into view, and anyone interested can tune-in to see what's changed.
I'd certainly be interested in seeing your new layout.
Wayne
mbinsewiHow about a glimpse of the new layout?
Rich
Alton Junction
mbinsewi richhotrain Walthers provided a kit with a berm containment. Here is a photo of that completed kit on my old layout. I see that empty lot, up by the caboose and the CN box car, must been reserved for Bertram's? How about a glimpse of the new layout? Mike.
richhotrain Walthers provided a kit with a berm containment. Here is a photo of that completed kit on my old layout.
I see that empty lot, up by the caboose and the CN box car, must been reserved for Bertram's?
How about a glimpse of the new layout?
Mike.
richhotrainWalthers provided a kit with a berm containment. Here is a photo of that completed kit on my old layout.
My You Tube
Once again, kudos to Ed for the great historic photos. I will be building an oilfield and small refinery from the 30s-50s at one end of my layout. Between his earlier posts with photos of carbon black plants and this latest effort, it's as if he's my personal research department!
Muchas gracias Ed.
By the way, my grandfather worked in the oil fields in the L.A. area (including Signal Hill) in the 20s and 30s. My first close-up view of the fields was in the 50s, but they were very old sites probably developed in the 20s. My recollection is that the containments were very primitave dirt berms with no liners.
Tim
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
Walthers provided a kit with a berm containment. Here is a photo of that completed kit on my old layout.
Any berm containment is supposed to hold 1.5x the tank or tanks capacity and usually clay. Circa 1920s at a minimum the tank basin has to hold at least the volume of tank or tanks inside the berm. I am going to be adding a circa 1970s gas and oil terminal to my modified Virgianian layout and had the same thought on my containment berm size. I have worked on terminals so some terminal spill containmet knowledge. Those photos of the old terminals are great. That oily mess is keeping me busy even today.
Thanks to all for ideas....
I didn't think of good 'ol Shorpy....great resource for seeing how we lived way back when, and the glass plate-produced photos you find there rival any current digital stuff I've seen. That then reminded me of the Library of Congress (LoC) photo archives. So...with those sources, plus the other info/ideas you provided I think I'll settle on the bare ground for the tank base and an earthen dike/berm to contain spills/leaks (at least for the short-term!). I saw more than one such installation on the Shorpy/LoC sites. And, a factor to consider is that regulation of such businesses a hundred years ago was much less than today.
Hello All,
I grew up in Long Beach, CA, in the 1970s; 2-blocks north of the city of Signal Hill, CA.
Signal Hill was incorporated in 1924 solely because of its oil fields.
We had 2 walking beam-horse head oil pumps at the end of our block. There were also several vertical storage tanks for the harvested oil.
The containment area surrounding the tanks was a dirt berm. It was approximately 2- to 3-feet wide at the top, 3-feet high, and about 8- to 9-feet at its base.
Because the site was on a slight slope the upper end of the containment area was cut into the slope and the berm extended out on 3 sides.
The entire surface inside the containment area was tar that had saturated the dirt forming a shell.
Spilled oil just soaks into the ground while the tar provides a short-term barrier.
Next to the containment area was a corrugated tin shack with a sump pump that looked like it could be attached to a tanker truck to remove the spilled oil.
Modeling the tar could be as simple as using a flat black latex paint within the berms.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
stayboltI model in the 1920s and am putting a small oil products dealer facility on the layout.
I'm thinking like Kevin. For a small dealer, I doubt there was any kind of containment.
Back in the early 50's there was an oil dealer in my town that received a tank car every once in a while, and the vertical tanks sat right on a gravel base, and there was no dike or containment. Same with horizontal tanks, only they had concrete "cradles" to hold them steady, but again, no containment.
The area was all gravel, along with the parking area.
I can see large refineries and distribution centers having a dike, but small dealers, probably not.
I have no idea when such a regulation would have been issued.
A small oil dealer in the 1920s might not have had a dike at all. I do not know how to look up historical requirements.
I do know it was not until the 1980s that containment dikes were added to the above ground fuel storage tanks at the marine fueling facilities on Fort Myers Beach in Florida. Those are the only local above ground storage tanks at dealers that I know of.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hello,
I do recall seeing some old photos of the Standard Oil Refineries here in Cleveland in the early '20s and I believe the dikes were earth or perhaps a type of blue clay.
Something like this?
https://www.shorpy.com/node/20720?size=_original#caption
I wouldn't think asphalt would hold up too well if exposed to gasoline or any other VOCs. Hard-packed earth or, for the more profitable operations, concrete.
I found two Shorpy photos that seem to favor a larger, combination retainer and fence support that surrounsd all the tanks:
https://www.shorpy.com/node/4310
https://www.shorpy.com/node/3553
Hard to tell in this low-angle shot but if you look ahead of the two autos it looks like an earthen dam intended to contain leaking oil.
https://www.shorpy.com/node/17239
This Phillips plant has none but, possibly, due to War time constraints they planned to add them later.
https://www.shorpy.com/node/6265
Here's a tidy, little place that looks like they attempted to create an earthen *** some years ago but simply gave up:
https://www.shorpy.com/node/23405?size=_original#caption
one more for good measure:
https://www.shorpy.com/node/23448?size=_original#caption
We had tall, circular tanks at the plant where I worked. The concrete foundations were only about three feet total, larger in diameter than the tank itself so you would see about an 18" lip of concrete at the base of the tank.
tankfarm1932 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
I model in the 1920s and am putting a small oil products dealer facility on the layout. It's got vertical cylindrical storage tanks for the various products (heating oil, kerosene, gasoline) it sells. I need to determine, as close as I can, what surface, or pad, might have been used for the tanks and also, what material might have been used for a spill containment dike around the perimeter of the tank area. I've done a little research, but only find current requirements for such materials. Evidently, hard-packed clay is sufficient for the more viscous products, but for something like a gasoline spill a less porous material is required. From what I gather, asphalt had been in use for various purposes for some time by the 1920s, so it would seem conceivable, if not actual, that asphalt might have been a realistic choice. It's less porous than clay, so it would contain a gasoline spill at least for the time it would take to clean it up. To simulate asphalt I would use an acrylic paint I have named "pavement" that's close to the color of asphalt.
Does this sound like a realistic choice to anybody else, or if not, does anyone have other ideas?