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TT & TO at a junction question

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TT & TO at a junction question
Posted by jmbjmb on Sunday, September 27, 2020 8:05 PM

My proto freelanced railroad features a junction where the branch leaves the main.  During the era I model the prototype was TT&TO ops and before radio was in common use.  I've even found a timetable for the period.  The junction was a middle of no where location with no station nearby.  While I have a rudimentary understanding of TT&TO ops, what I don't understand is how a crew working on the branch will know that superior trains have passed the junction when they arrive at it?

Thanks for any ideas.

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Posted by dehusman on Sunday, September 27, 2020 8:21 PM

.

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Posted by dehusman on Sunday, September 27, 2020 8:23 PM

Is there an open TO office on the branch and how far from the junction?

Do you know how long the trains were on the branch (a short branch 10 miles long, a long branch 100 miles long, where there industries that would take all day to switch or did the trains spend a little time on the branch?

How far from the junction on the "main line" was the next train order office?

Was there a telephone box at the junction?

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by cx500 on Monday, September 28, 2020 4:49 PM

One method was to have a register shack at the junction, where the trains would stop and register in the book kept there.  Before entering the main line the branch line train would stop and check the register book to confirm all superior trains had a arrived and left, and when.  A train register was also kept in originating stations and had to be checked when coming on duty to determine if any conflicting movements were still out there.

One head-on with fatalities occurred because the crew assumed the power on the shop track was off the scheduled eastbound freight, rather than checking the register.  Three miles out of the terminal that assumption proved incorrect. 

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Posted by jmbjmb on Monday, September 28, 2020 7:47 PM

Let me try to answer with the best information I have access to.  This may be incorrect but it's the best I have.  The branch was about 14 miles long. In the era I'm modeling, there were a couple of sidings along the way (cotton gin and propane), and a small depot at the end of the branch.  But the primary purpose was to serve a cotton mill and power plant.  Switching usually took a couple hours.

The timetable I have says a train coming from the branch did not need a clearance card because there was no operator on duty.   It also says there is a register at the junction.  Does that mean that all trains had to stop and read the book or sign in?  Seems like a time consuming process when something like 15 trains a day going through.

 

Thank you everyone.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, September 28, 2020 8:17 PM

Does the time table say if it's a restricted use register at the junction?  Such as "Only trains originating or terminating need register."  If not, all trains would have to stop and register (sign the book with the required information) unless otherwise directed by train order.

Some other questions.  How is the main line operated?  Is it single or double track with ABS?  Is it operated by TT & TO or CTC?  

Jeff

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 1:04 AM

jeffhergert
Some other questions.  How is the main line operated?  Is it single or double track with ABS?  Is it operated by TT & TO or CTC?  

If its CTC or double track ABS then the original question is moot.  In either of those cases there aren't any "superior" trains.  Single track ABS doesn't change anything either, because ABS doesn't confer authority.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 1:10 AM

jmbjmb

The timetable I have says a train coming from the branch did not need a clearance card because there was no operator on duty.   It also says there is a register at the junction.  Does that mean that all trains had to stop and read the book or sign in?

There's your answer.  The "main line" trains register at the junction and the train coming off the branch knows what trains have passed or are due.

Yes, it is a time consuming process in that the mainl line trains have to stop and fill out the register (five minutes per train).  The main line trains really didn't need to check the register since they would have done that at origin and then they would be governed by the time table and train orders and it wouldn't matter to them whether or not there was a register.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 3:35 PM

dehusman

 

 
jeffhergert
Some other questions.  How is the main line operated?  Is it single or double track with ABS?  Is it operated by TT & TO or CTC?  

 

If its CTC or double track ABS then the original question is moot.  In either of those cases there aren't any "superior" trains.  Single track ABS doesn't change anything either, because ABS doesn't confer authority.

 

Exactly.

Jeff

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Posted by jmbjmb on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:05 PM

The mainline during the time I'm modeling was  single track TT&TO in this region based on the information I have.   For the register it says "...for the inforamtion of switch engines and branch line trains only.  Sections of regular trains will not be originated or terminated.

So it sounds like every train through has to stop and sign the book, including first class passenger trains.  And the train coming from the branch would have to stop and check to make sure every train that is suppoed to pass has passed. 

Sounds like a way to add some operational interest.  Train leaving the branch has to stop and maybe have a random flip to determine if a train has passed or have to wait some period.

 

Thanks guys. 

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Posted by cv_acr on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 9:05 AM

jmbjmb
Sounds like a way to add some operational interest.  Train leaving the branch has to stop and maybe have a random flip to determine if a train has passed or have to wait some period.

No, they just check the register to make sure nothing superior is still due. If a superior train is running late and hasn't passed, they wait until it has. If everything due has gone by, they're free to go (on their own schedule).

If you want to cause them delays, schedule a superior train on the mainline near the same time the branch train is expected to come back. Due to different amounts of time spent working (different number of cars to switch, complexity, crew experience), the branch train may or may not make it back before the superior train. And if the superior train is delayed, it will delay the branch train while it waits for it. There's nothing random about coming onto the main - the differences in working times will give you all the variation you need, and a register check for late trains gets you onto the main (or not).

 

Edit: .... unless you haven't actually modelled any more of the mainline other than the junction and don't have any other trains operating. Then maybe you come up with some system to simulate the superior train running late....   schedule it so that if the branch train is done early they could get out ahead of the superior train... but if they take longer they hit up against the superior train's time, then some sort of coin flip or card draw to "add time" and determine how many minutes the other train is running late...

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Posted by jmbjmb on Thursday, October 1, 2020 7:03 PM

cv_acr

 

 
jmbjmb
Sounds like a way to add some operational interest.  Train leaving the branch has to stop and maybe have a random flip to determine if a train has passed or have to wait some period.

 

No, they just check the register to make sure nothing superior is still due. If a superior train is running late and hasn't passed, they wait until it has. If everything due has gone by, they're free to go (on their own schedule).

If you want to cause them delays, schedule a superior train on the mainline near the same time the branch train is expected to come back. Due to different amounts of time spent working (different number of cars to switch, complexity, crew experience), the branch train may or may not make it back before the superior train. And if the superior train is delayed, it will delay the branch train while it waits for it. There's nothing random about coming onto the main - the differences in working times will give you all the variation you need, and a register check for late trains gets you onto the main (or not).

 

Edit: .... unless you haven't actually modelled any more of the mainline other than the junction and don't have any other trains operating. Then maybe you come up with some system to simulate the superior train running late....   schedule it so that if the branch train is done early they could get out ahead of the superior train... but if they take longer they hit up against the superior train's time, then some sort of coin flip or card draw to "add time" and determine how many minutes the other train is running late...

 

 

Thank you.  Right now I only have about 3 feet of the mainline in place.  The goal is just as you said and have scheduled trains on the main.  But I have a couple more years before the youngest is through college and out of the house and space becomes available.

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