Reading about the Golden Age we see things like "The Century ran in five sections that night." So how did the NYC or PRR or ATSF or whoever accomplish that from an equipment standpoint....OK, you've got one section made up of the post-WWII equipment, do you then pull the pre-war equipment from wherever it is assigned (obviously you need aa few spare cars in case of problems, but I can't believe any railroad would allow entire trainsets to sit idle on standby - not when you are still paying off the 15 year equipment trust) What about the other sections - do you play, "you've been bumped" down to the lowliest, makes every stop, overnighter. At what point does the passenger department say, "Sorry, we're full tonight" or was really that huge a pool at Pullman or wherever to cover traffic surges like that.
BEAUSABREAt what point does the passenger department say, "Sorry, we're full tonight" or was really that huge a pool at Pullman or wherever to cover traffic surges like that.
Short answer, yes there WAS a huge pool of unassigned equipment (and porters, cooks, Pullman conductors, waiters, etc.) that could be called upon for surges in traffic.
Add to that the fact that there were "Advance" trains as well (Advance Twentieth Century, Commodore Vanderbilt, etc.) These could also run in multiple sections.
The sections generally ran on five or six minute lead times ahead of the scheduled train. During periods of high holiday traffic or special events there certainly was a constant parade of passenger trains.
Both Lucius Beebe and Edward Hungerford attested that the service and attention to detail offered on any of the sections were on par with what was expected of the service on the actual Century or Commodore.
Century_Advance by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
There is a picture in the Ball and Frimbo book on the decade of the '40s that shows how the Burlington did this with one of the Zephyrs -- I will have to go back and see which one it was. The 'original' section was the streamlined shovelnose consist; I believe the second section was heavyweights pulled by a steam engine.
On the NYC the sections ran as close to the first one's time as possible; there are a number of accounts that say not only that you could clearly see the headlight of the following section, but that you could make out the plume of steam from the turbogenerator or perhaps even the feedwater heater vent (!) Presumably the railroad would invest in enough car capacity to run what was essentially a long single train with 'distributed power', or contract with Pullman to provide overflow capability for heavier demand periods 'at the necessary level of equipment quality'. As I recall the Hungerford book 'Run of the Twentieth Century' contains information on how the sections were made up and operated.
The railroad that comes to mind having ridiculous overcapacity in 'special' equipment was C&O with the enormous order for the Chessie in the late 1940s, much of which got distributed all over the place when the amazing race for trains to Cincinnati failed to thrive.
One has to remember that railroads run trains for a living. They have been doing this for years. After about 20 years of having lots of passengers on peak periods they kinda notice a trend that at certain times of the year and on certain services, they have more demand than other times of the year and other services. So they adjust their service on the in demand lanes accordingly.
They know that around Christmas the demand for the Broadway Limited schedule will be 1000 seats so they plan on having 3 or 4 sections of that schedule. They plan on having the equipment there, they plan on having the all the porters and trains crews, they plan on having the engines there. Its not something they just jump up and decide to do at the last minute. They anticipate that they will need more equipment weeks or months in advance.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
gmpullmanThe sections generally ran on five or six minute lead times ahead of [emphasis added] the scheduled train.
Um, not quite.
"Running sections" means running multiple trains on the same schedule. NONE of the sections can run before the times printed in the timetable.
Sections are not running "ahead of" the scheduled train... the first section IS the "scheduled train", with each additional section running behind the one before it. So the first section will be running around the published times at the absolute possible earliest, and the last section will be running somewhat behind the published times.
Basically ALL of the sections are "the scheduled train". That's kind of the point. Any opposing trains that would have to wait for no. 10 would have to wait for ALL of the sections of no. 10 unless explicitly instructed otherwise by train order.
"Advance" sections of a scheduled train are not a "thing" under operating rules - these would be run as an extra or a different schedule. The Passenger Marketing Department may brand it as the "Advance ____" but for operating crews it's "Passenger Extra 1234" or "No. 12" (schedules and timetables don't list train "names" anyway, only schedule numbers).
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
BEAUSABREAt what point does the passenger department say, "Sorry, we're full tonight"
While the sections may not be "scheduled" on the printed timetable, they're definitely "scheduled" in terms of arranging for equipment and crews to be available in the right place, which would have to be done well in advance. They probably planned those five sections weeks ago, and if they all sell out, they sell out.
BEAUSABREWhat about the other sections - do you play, "you've been bumped" down to the lowliest, makes every stop, overnighter.
That's not generally going to be how sections work - if one is a limited stop afternoon coach train, and the other is an all stops overnight train, they're NOT going to be sharing a schedule, that's two completely different trains.
Sections are all the SAME train* with the SAME schedule and superiority.
*Note that actually running sections and extras is an operating tool which can be used with a certain amount of flexibility by the dispatcher. Pretty much any train can be run on any printed schedule as necessary - I've heard of priority fast freights being run as a second sections to a passenger schedules, etc. But the above situation of having two very different classes of passenger service would definitely be scheduled as two different trains.
And to really answer that question about getting bumped, I wouldn't imagine it's that complicated... "I'm sorry but no. 10 is completely sold out for that day's departure. There's another train in the evening that has seats available, or would you like to look at the next day for no. 10?"
cv_acrnd to really answer that question about getting bumped, I wouldn't imagine it's that complicated... "I'm sorry but no. 10 is completely sold out for that day's departure. There's another train in the evening that has seats available, or would you like to look at the next day for no. 10?"
And that happened.
The most recent issue of the Reading Co Tech and Hist Soc. Bee Line had excepts of articles from a Harrisburg newspaper about the RDG and in the 1919 issue there weas an article about complaints due to severe over crowding and passengers having SRO on certain trains and the railroad projecting the condions would continue for a while, since the cause was attributed to increased demand from solidiers returning from WW1.
I think part of the problem for folks born and raised in the Amtrak era is that it's hard to fathom how many trains there used to be. The OP mentioned New York Central - on a typical day c.1941 the New York Central System had a couple hundred passenger trains running. The Central didn't have a train set plus a train set in reserve for each train, it had hundreds (thousands?) of passenger cars at their disposal.
At that time the number of people sleeping in Pullman cars on the NYC alone were enough to fill a large New York City hotel.
Plus they might not all be the same train as far as accomodations, they would load the longer distance passengers on the first sections and the shorter distance passengers on the following sections then terminate following sections at intermediate points. Cleveland and beyond passengers on the first section, up to Cleveland on the second, up to Buffalo on the third, up to Albany on the 4th. The Albany and Buffalo sections might not have or need sleepers.
Good point, I know when the heavyweight Empire Builder ran in sections Great Northern would sometimes have one section of just the coaches, with another section just the Pullmans.
dehusmanPlus they might not all be the same train as far as accomodations, they would load the longer distance passengers on the first sections and the shorter distance passengers on the following sections then terminate following sections at intermediate points.
While it would not have occurred to me that anyone would take a Pullman to Albany, I seem to remember reports of people like Beebe who would ride just to have dinner and cocktails on the train. A whole section of such passengers, even before the Depression, seems unlikely to me.
Something else I did not know was how short a time the 'Advance' trains left before the main first section -- in essence constituting a 'first section' that would run limited stops and detrain-only to stay ahead of anything immediately following as well as get into the terminal city as soon as possible.
An additional question involved how many tracks needed to be used by sections at the stops -- potentially no more than three if the sections run a nominal 5" apart and dwell time in station is also under 5".
Were Pullmans taken out of any Century sections, at Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo or elsewhere, to be put on other trains or 'held' until morning? I wouldn't have thought so.
OvermodSomething else I did not know was how short a time the 'Advance' trains left before the main first section -- in essence constituting a 'first section' that would run limited stops and detrain-only to stay ahead of anything immediately following as well as get into the terminal city as soon as possible.
That's easy. "Advance" sections of that schedule can leave exactly zero minutes ahead of the regular schedule.
If the "Advance section" leaves before the schedule of the regular schedule then its not a "section" its its own or a completely different schedule, not a section.
If you operate a train with limited stops (i.e. stops at some places and not at others) then you have to operate both trains all the way. If you run an all Pullman section and an all coach section then you would have to run both trains all the way, the Pullman trains would only have to make stops where they sold Pullman accomodations from and the coach train would have to make all scheduled stops. The Pullman train would run on time and the coach train would run late, behind it.
They also might not take up any more track space. They could operate serially, using the same track. The first section would be on time and the following sections would all operate late by whatever the spacing was between the trains. If the trains were operating on 15 minute headways and the first section was on time, then the 5th section woud be essentially running an hour late. There is NO WAY any of the sections can depart ahead of time and NO WAY all the sections can be on time.
If you want details on how the 20th Century operated I would suggest contacting the NYC historical society. I'm sure they could give you lots of information on how they did it. They probably did it different ways at a different times. My comments are more of a general sense and not anything specific railroad did exactly this in this eaxt year.
OvermodSomething else I did not know was how short a time the 'Advance' trains left before the main first section -- in essence constituting a 'first section'
Like was said earlier, you don't. That's not allowed under the rules. You can't run early ahead of the scheduled time. Period. "Advance sections" are a marketing thing, not operational. In order to run an "advance" section before the scheduled time of the main train you have to run a completely different schedule or an extra. Not a section of the same schedule.
cv_acrYou can't run early ahead of the scheduled time. Period. "Advance sections" are a marketing thing, not operational. In order to run an "advance" section before the scheduled time of the main train you have to run a completely different schedule or an extra. Not a section of the same schedule.
Overmod cv_acr You can't run early ahead of the scheduled time. Period. "Advance sections" are a marketing thing, not operational. In order to run an "advance" section before the scheduled time of the main train you have to run a completely different schedule or an extra. Not a section of the same schedule. You'd think that a train like the 'Advance Commodore Vanderbilt' with its own signage and I believe its own timetable listing would not be interpreted as if it were the same thing as the 'secret quicker first section' of the main Commodore Vanderbilt, which is only divided into sections because it would be inconvenient to run the thing as one whole train even with only 'convenience' stops (at Harmon to change power, and I think Englewood). Certainly for an 'advance' train to make any sense it would have to be faster than 'the rest' of the divided consist. Of course, perhaps it was only marketing and we are so stupid as not to know the difference.
cv_acr You can't run early ahead of the scheduled time. Period. "Advance sections" are a marketing thing, not operational. In order to run an "advance" section before the scheduled time of the main train you have to run a completely different schedule or an extra. Not a section of the same schedule.
You'd think that a train like the 'Advance Commodore Vanderbilt' with its own signage and I believe its own timetable listing would not be interpreted as if it were the same thing as the 'secret quicker first section' of the main Commodore Vanderbilt, which is only divided into sections because it would be inconvenient to run the thing as one whole train even with only 'convenience' stops (at Harmon to change power, and I think Englewood). Certainly for an 'advance' train to make any sense it would have to be faster than 'the rest' of the divided consist. Of course, perhaps it was only marketing and we are so stupid as not to know the difference.
I don't follow the point you're making.
Please understand that "Commodore Vanderbilt" is a marketing name for the train. You won't see that designation in the operating schedule in the employee's timetable. Operating schedules in the timetable are listed by schedule numbers. Since I'm not totally familiar with the particular RR's timetable, lets say "Commodore Vanderbilt" runs as no. 10.
The "Advance Commodore Vanderbilt" cannot run as "advance" sections of no. 10 because that's not how timetable/train order rules and practices work. It might be listed as a separate train, say no. 12. Passenger marketing will identify no. 10 as "Commodore Vanderbilt" and no. 12 as "Advance Commodore Vanderbilt". The operating timetable schedule will only indicate no. 10 and no. 12.
Additional sections of no. 10's operating schedule may only run LATER than the first section, operating on time. Sections of no. 10 MAY NOT ever run earlier than no. 10's schedule times listed in the timetable. If you want to run an earlier train it must be a different schedule.
cv_acrThe "Advance Commodore Vanderbilt" cannot run as "advance" sections of no. 10 because that's not how timetable/train order rules and practices work. It might be listed as a separate train, say no. 12. Passenger marketing will identify no. 10 as "Commodore Vanderbilt" and no. 12 as "Advance Commodore Vanderbilt". The operating timetable schedule will only indicate no. 10 and no. 12.
I had always thought, or assumed, that the 'Advance Commodore Vanderbilt was its own train, with distinct number and operating rights. I did not look specifically at the "Advance Twentieth Century" to see if it was set up that way or (reading between the lines in that strange Wikipedia article) actually operating as the 'first section' with the rest of the times implicitly pushed back (as you noted, probably for marketing reasons if so).
ISTR that one of the points of the Advance Commodore Vanderbilt was that its Pullman ride was said to be rougher in some ways due to higher speed. That to me automatically indicates it was being dispatched as a separate train and not a first section operating in advance of the "train's" schedule -- which I agree would be a no-no.
A possible partial resolution of this us to look at the arrival times of the Advance and regular Commodores. If the Advance was a faster train leaving "only 5 minutes ahead" we would expect it to stay progressively ahead of the 'train of sections' and arrive in Chicago perhaps far more than just the five minutes earlier...
cv_acr Please understand that "Commodore Vanderbilt" is a marketing name for the train. You won't see that designation in the operating schedule in the employee's timetable. Operating schedules in the timetable are listed by schedule numbers. Since I'm not totally familiar with the particular RR's timetable, lets say "Commodore Vanderbilt" runs as no. 10.
Some railroads DID list train names in their employee time tables. Usually the premier trains.
http://wx4.org/to/foam/maps/1_habegger/1958-04-27AT%26SF_Illinois6-JonHabegger.pdf
http://wx4.org/to/foam/maps/1_habegger/1961-04-16D%26RGW_Utah_1-Webber-Habegger.pdf
http://wx4.org/to/foam/maps/1_habegger/1959-10-25IC_IllinoisDiv_Chicago-Champaign83-Jon%20Habegger.pdf
http://wx4.org/to/foam/sp/maps/perryETT/1963-10-27SP_Coast186-SheldonPerry.pdf
http://wx4.org/to/foam/sp/maps/zukasETT/1949-09-25CRI%26P_DesMoinesDiv-1stDist_2-TimZukas.pdf
And apparently, the NYC did too.
http://wx4.org/to/foam/maps/1_habegger/1947-09-28NYC_Illinois26-Jon%20Habegger.pdf
All the links above are from this site. http://wx4.org/to/foam/a_rrcontents.html
Then go to the Wx4 "Card Catalog." There is a lot of info collected here.
Jeff
OvermodCertainly for an 'advance' train to make any sense it would have to be faster than 'the rest' of the divided consist.
Why would that make sense?
It would use the same engines and cars and runs on the same track, so the operating speed would be the same. The only way it would be faster is if it made fewer stops (making it a "limited".)
A train can run at the same speed as another train and remain ahead of it the whole way (in "advance").
"Advance" doesn't imply faster, it implies "earlier".
Doing some more poking around, I found some other NYC etts.
The Advance Commodore Vanderbilt had it's own schedule. No. 65 for the Advance CV, No. 67 for the CV. You have to scroll down to the ett's page 18.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ett/images/mohawk-tt-0446.pdf
jeffhergertSome railroads DID list train names in their employee time tables. Usually the premier trains.
Ok, that's cool. It's a nice extra bit of informational data. Most of the Canadian railways didn't include that extra line to note train names, as there were far fewer "named" trains. My own modeling is a slightly later time frame as well, so I'm usually looking at 1970s-80s timetables.
OvermodBoth those are things I never realized. In fact I think I just tacitly assumed everyone riding that particular train was going through reasonably far to Chicago: it was Pullman-only, so little point leaving in the afternoon to get to Albany just before the hour you'd go to bed, or pay extra fare to get off in the middle of the night at Cleveland or Toledo when other trains would get you there in daylight or go more directly to, say, Detroit. While it would not have occurred to me that anyone would take a Pullman to Albany, I seem to remember reports of people like Beebe who would ride just to have dinner and cocktails on the train. A whole section of such passengers, even before the Depression, seems unlikely to me.
Except for it's last few years in the 1960's, the 20th Century was an all Pullman train. In the heavyweight version, the only car marked "New York Central" was the diner. Even the combination baggage-smoker was lettered for Pullman. Someone going from New York City to Albany probably wouldn't wait until afternoon to pay double to take the 20th Century, they would buy a coach seat on one of the other trains New York Central offered.
I forget the exact number, but I believe New York Central at it's peak had something like a dozen different trains going from New York to Chicago each day. Some trains like the 20th Century made limited stops (hence the train name) at a few cities, other trains stopped at more intermediate locations. Some trains went to Chicago south of the Great Lakes (i.e. through Cleveland) on New York Central's traditional main line, others crossed into Ontario near Niagara Falls and went through lower Ontario to Windsor/Detroit on the Canada Southern, then on to Chicago on Michigan Central.
BTW at Albany, the Central connected to the Boston & Albany and transferred Pullman cars there, so for example you could ride the 20th Century from Chicago to Boston without having to change cars.
Brief excerpts from the Beebe book 20th Century (1962)
— Supposing that through some concatenation of important events in the East or Middle West, there were seven sections of the regular train running in a single direction against the conventional two or three in the opposing run as well as The Advanced Twentieth Century Limited and whatever might be required for the Boston Section there might well be close to a dozen versions of The Century between terminal and terminal on a given night each with an average consist of a postal car, club car, eight sleepers, one diner and one observation-club-sleeping car.
Taking in to consideration that only specially selected Pullman equipment with decor and furnishings acceptable to the management were starred on the Pullman list as being available to assignment to trains No. 25 and 26, it will be apparent that an enormous pool of passenger cars must be available in the coach yards of Mott Haven and its opposite number, Root Street Yard in Chicago.
Staffing a train of such unpredictable dimensions was a problem shared of course by the Pullman Company and the Central jointly since Pullman owned cars were operated by Pullman directed staffs of Pullman conductors, porters, barbers, club car attendants and special service functionaries.
The author goes on to cite several examples of the operations of club and dining cars and the number of hand-selected Century qualified personnel. Plus the logistics of completely stocking the dining cars with Virginia hams, racks of spring lamb and minute breakfast steaks for six extra dining cars plus all the amenities such as fresh cut flowers, liquor, cigars and even the newspapers. Mr. Beebe goes on to say that even in times the train was run in eight sections, there was never a shortage of train-name tail signs to adorn the brass rail observation cars.
Although it might appear from the heterogeneous duties assigned to it that the last section was the least favored of the several Centuries, the fact was quite opposite. Although it worked mail and passengers along the route it was the one train that ran precicely on the carded schedule and arrived at its terminal on the dot of time. Other sections ran ahead of it * and had to accommodate themselves to its meticulous progress according to the timecard.
* My emphasis.
While they may run ahead of the scheduled 25 or 26 the extra sections might actually be running as sections of a preceeding train. I have never had any reason to doubt the writings of Lucius Beebe and his recounting of operations of the Century in his book will probably stand up to scrutiny.
Regards, Ed
gmpullman, quoting Lucius BeebeAlthough it might appear from the heterogeneous duties assigned to it that the last section was the least favored of the several Centuries, the fact was quite opposite. Although it worked mail and passengers along the route it was the one train that ran precisely on the carded schedule and arrived at its terminal on the dot of time. Other sections ran ahead of it and had to accommodate themselves to its meticulous progress according to the timecard.
This has some highly interesting implications for a Century running in eight sections; in practice I suspect you had seven running nose-to-tail with that last section the only one stopping at Albany to take the Boston section (and incidentally let Beebe and his fellow diners off to ride some other Great Steel Fleet train back...) I'm presuming Harmon was never anything but a quick mandatory power swap. Was there time to be saved by the early sections using the Castleton cutoff once it was open to bypass Albany? And was there some necessity for more than one section to stop at Englewood (the only other 'carded' stop as I recall the all-Pullman schedule)?
[Next question: where did they put all eight sections in Chicago so passengers could take their time with morning prep and 'alighting' after scheduled arrival, which as I recall was a feature of the 20th Century's service?]
Overmod[Next question: where did they put all eight sections in Chicago so passengers could take their time with morning prep and 'alighting' after scheduled arrival, which as I recall was a feature of the 20th Century's service?
Engine changes at Harmon probably got a little hectic, too.
I've seen photos of five sections in the station but certainly not eight (nevermind the dozens of other movements in and out of LaSalle). Maybe Parmalee Transfer from Englewood? (humor)
Cheers, Ed
Aside from being a fundamental violation of the rules, running ahead of schedule doesn't make any sense from a passenger perspective either.
If the schedule says that the train leaves a station at 3:00pm, and you arrive at the station at 2:45 pm to catch it, only to find that it left at 2:30pm because it was running in ADVANCE of the schedule, that's not going to be very helpful.
A scheduled train can depart either on time or late. It can't, by rule, depart ahead of time.
Regardless of what Beebe says.
The other question I have is when he says there were a dozen sections, is he talking sections of the same schedule of the same day or sections of the same schedule of multiple days, i.e. There might be 12 sections of the 20th centrury between Chicago and New York, 6 from each of the 2 days it takes to get between the cities.
dehusman... each of the 2 days it takes to get between the cities.
His "dozen sections" refers only to the overall number of cars needed to be made available (and suitably stocked) for train makeup, of course -- unless you think that operations westbound have some implications for eastbound timekeeping, which I almost can't imagine a reason for.
On Monday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave New York. 40 cars.
On Monday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave Chicago. 40 cars.
On Tuesday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave New York. 40 cars. Monday's sections are in Ohio.
On Tuesday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave Chicago. 40 cars. Monday's sections are in Ohio.
On Wednesday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave New York. 40 cars. Monday's sections are arriving Chicago, Tuesday's sections are in Ohio.
On Wednesday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave Chicago. 40 cars. Monday's sections are arriving New York, Tuesday's sections are in Ohio.
To support that service the railroad would need 24 sections, 240 cars plus spares.
If you add a day to the transit time, it would take 32 sections, 320 cars plus spares.
dehusmanOn Wednesday 4 sections with 10 cars each leave Chicago. 40 cars. Monday's sections are arriving New York, Tuesday's sections are in Ohio.
Have no idea whatsoever what the scheduled times are. Haven't seen a schedule, don't know what the running times are. An 18 hour schedule means there are at least 2-3 sets of equipment for each section, at minimum. If there are 5 sections with 10 cars each then that means to run the service it would take around 10-15 sets of cars with 100-150 cars.
Something I came across while paging through the NYC system timetable, January 29, 1933:
NYC_form-1001-notice by Edmund, on Flickr
Adjusted for inflation that Depression-era, 1933 ten-dollar extra fare translates to $200.00 today.
A little more discussion on running sections here:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/180335.aspx
Thank you, Ed