Hi all.
Would you ever see a boxcar sent to a customer carrying a mixed load? Like cases of tools, pallets of feed, crates of pipe fittings, etc? A full carload of mixed freight to a single vendor as opposed to a freight house or team track?
On my layout, I plan to have some sort of general supply/feed & seed store, and I'd like to have it receive carloads of stock, but you'd never see an operation of it's size getting, say, a boxcar full of hammers. It'd take forever to sell through!
So would something like that actually happen in reality, or will I be sending the store's inventory to the team track? If it matters, I'm modeling the mid-30's.
- Adam
When all else fails, wing it!
Of the products are coming from the same supplier, it would be possible. Otherwise different products come from different suppliers in other boxcars.
Hi,
I believe a "Mixed Load" was what the railroad called LCL or Less Than Carload freight. The New York Central's Pacemaker and I believe the B&O called it Sentinel Service. That freight was probably sent to a freight house for unloading. The PRR and some other roads were experimenting with containerized freight. Not long after TOFC and Flexi-Van took the place of LCL freight.
I can't see a scenario where an entire car would be sent to a siding at a feed store unless, of course, it was a carload of feed. Seems to me most of the feed stores I remember had a small inventory of hardware which would be restocked on a as needed but probably frequent basis.
Some LCL work was done without setting the car off as this photo of my dad's brother-in-law shows:
Stanley_Warren_8-36 by Edmund, on Flickr
This is the B&M station at Warren, New Hampshire. If this type of delivery was heading to the feed mill I'm sure they would have a wagon or could hire a teamster to make the final "drayage" from the depot freight house to the mill.
I imagine a larger shipment, say a tractor, combine or larger crated goods would be spotted at the team track.
Most freight shipments were arranged through a broker or freight agent. They would have a pretty tough time making partial box car shipments and making any money off it. That's what the Railway Express Agency was for. I remember seeing many old crates, kegs and heavy pieces of hardware at the stockroom of my former employer. REA tags were pretty common on much of this stuff.
https://www.american-rails.com/railway-express-agency.html
Good Luck, Ed
A big problem with using a single boxcar to make deliveries to, say, 3 different businesses is "load control". Pilferage. Or fake pilferage.
The railroad doesn't supervise unloading their freight cars at customer locations. So you can have the 2nd guy claiming he didn't receive all his stuff. Who's to know?
LCL goes to railroad freighthouses. Which they DO control.
Of course, if you're shipping 4 tractors on a flat, it's pretty easy for the railroad to check if only 1 tractor was unloaded. But I have trouble envisioning a conductor doing that kind of extra paperwork. And accepting that kind of responsibility. But maybe.
Ed
Adam,If the tools and fittings was coming from a hardware distributor then a boxcar could have a mix load of tools and fittings.
As far as speeds and feeds that could come by truck or boxcars loaded with feed or seeds.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ok, so this is very helpful so far. What I'm taking away here from what's been said is that I'm looking at this wrong. I'm fixating on one preferred scenario rather than looking at how railroads actually worked. And I was missing operational potential to boot.
It's called hitchen a ride. I worked in logistics most of my life and whether it was planes, trains, trucks or ships, if we needed to get something somewhere we would call to see if someone had room for something and that made for some strange loads sometimes. Also, pick up and drop off could be at some interesting places.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Yes there were and perhaps still are mixed loads. An article in MR (or one of its special issues maybe?) a few years ago about tractor loads on a flatcar gave one example. The same flat car would be gradually unloaded as it was delivered to various customers. This called for interesting routing. The tractors on the flatcar would not necessarily have to be all the same model, which is at least technically a mixed load. Whether it was waybilled as LCL I do not know.
There are also mixed loads perhaps going to the same customer. I have an AAR manual for claims investigators of damaged freight. It was their job to determine nature and amount of damage and likely reason for it so it goes into quite a bit of detail about how freight is to be secured inside a boxcar. Different types of freight called for different ways of stacking boxes, load restraints, and the like and as I read the manual, having a mixed load was a fairly common reason for damage during transit because the people doing the loading did not secure the different loads in the best way.
While not as "useful" for modelers as the AAR manuals for securing open loads on flatcars and gondolas, the AAR manual for damaged freight inspectors has plenty of interest in it for a modeler with a taste for knowing some of the inner workings of the railroad.
Dave Nelson
Dave,
And the conductors did the paperwork for the partially loaded flats, then. Right?
For the boxcars, how did they deal with the problem of pilferage, as I mentioned. Boxcars had seals. I suppose the conductor would then have had to inspect the remaining load after the first guy had unloaded HIS stuff. If he were satisfied, he could then reseal the door. But what if he missed something?
I am surprised that conductors would be given this apparently additional responsibility.
7j43k Dave, And the conductors did the paperwork for the partially loaded flats, then. Right? For the boxcars, how did they deal with the problem of pilferage, as I mentioned. Boxcars had seals. I suppose the conductor would then have had to inspect the remaining load after the first guy had unloaded HIS stuff. If he were satisfied, he could then reseal the door. But what if he missed something? I am surprised that conductors would be given this apparently additional responsibility. Ed
Probably the local agent at small towns or a clerk at larger towns and cities. A box car would have to be resealed and the agency handling the intermediate stop would most likely issue the new seals and note them on the waybill before the car was released for movement.
I believe I have a multi stop waybill in my collection. I'll have to look when I get home.
Jeff
Jeff,
I hope you find it--sounds interesting:
Road and car #, date, lading, destination.......?????
(Just in case you don't have enough to do in your life)
7j43kBoxcars had seals. I suppose the conductor would then have had to inspect the remaining load after the first guy had unloaded HIS stuff. If he were satisfied, he could then reseal the door. But what if he missed something?
Ed,The brotherhood would never allow that on the grounds that was a freight agent job and not the conductors.. The Freight agent's brotherhood would file a grievance saying the conductor was doing the work of a freight agent.
Thanks, Brakie.
Then it sounds like the freight agent would have to get himself out to the delivery site two times: to cut the seal and to reaseal it. And the appropriate paperwork. And load inspection, too.
I can imagine a lack of enthusiam by a railroad for putting 6 loads in one car and delivering direct to 6 customers. Although, paid enough extra, they'd probably have included dinner for two at each stop.
7j43kI can imagine a lack of enthusiam by a railroad for putting 6 loads in one car and delivering direct to 6 customers. Although, paid enough extra, they'd probably have included dinner for two at each stop.
That's why they didn't do that, except through freight houses, or a multi-stop waybill that went to the same customer in multiple locations. Jones Lumber has a lumberyard in 3 towns. They buy one car of material and split it between the three lumber yards. The waybill has multiple stops.
That's why they do the multiple customers in a car at the freight house. Otherwise there is no way to keep the shipments safe.
By the way the "seal" is a thin piece of tin you can cut with a pair of diagonal cutters. It provides no "security", its not a padlock. All it does is provide evidence whether the car door has been opened or not.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
That is (essentially) what I said earlier.
So you are contradicting what Dave and Jeff said earlier. It appears.
Not to hijack this thread, but I would be interested in reading if this process changed in the later decades? I model the 1980s and have a few boxcars. It makese sense to have them serve one customer, but would delivering material to other cusotmers along the way create logistical and financial issues?
kasskaboose It makese sense to have them serve one customer, but would delivering material to other cusotmers along the way create logistical and financial issues?
That would not happen due to the logistical and labor costs.
That is one reason why they had and still have in a sense Transload freight houses. For LCL shipments. For instance, not every customer has a rail siding. The MFG'er ships a fully loaded box car with their product, flour etc. and it is shipped to a Transload facility. The Transload workers unload the car and at the same time they load it back into, either another box car going to a further destination city or a truck trailer to be delivered. That trailer is loaded also with other customers goods that are either going to the same town/city for different customers or in another town that is close to the original first customer. In the Trucking industry that is known as a peddle freight load.....the driver stays out until His trailer is empty. When empty, He calls dispatch and says He's empty, and they will either tell Him to come home or that they have a load for Him to pick-up nearby to come back to the Transload facility, where they will load it into another box car that is going to another town or city in another state or west/east coast and the process starts over again. That is almost how the Intermodal container industry works to this very day. There is NO such thing as warehouses, much anymore.....the warehouse is the container. When a container comes by train from East/West coast it is unloaded at the Intermodal facility and put on wheels. The customer is notified that His shipment is in and they give Him a pick-up number. The drayage driver who is hired by the customer, goes and picks-up the container and delivers it to the customer. When empty, He either takes it back to the Intermodal facility or has to take it to another container facility that only stores emptys. In some cases, the drayage driver may be instructed to take that empty container to another customer, who has a load that needs to be shipped by rail. So He takes it there, gets loaded and may take it back to the same Intermodal facility or even another rail yard Intermodal facility. This is usually all set up before the container even gets unloaded from the first facility and everything is on a pre-paid basis.
What I tried to explain above, was what I did for 20yrs. of the 45 yrs. of being in the Trucking Industry and owning My own.
A well known Drayage Co. in NYC, CHGO who specialized in Transload for the Railroads in the 30's/50's era....Lifschultz.
On My layout....A SantaFe Transload facility:
Take Care!
Frank
zstripeThe MFG'er ships a fully loaded box car with their product, flour etc. and it is shipped to a Transload facility. The Transload workers unload the car and at the same time they load it back into, either another box car going to a further destination city or a truck trailer to be delivered.
Actually a boxcar doesn't need to be fully loaded as far as the railroad is concerned because they get the same freight car rate.
The good news is boxcar lading is up.
Iin the late 50's, I lived on a farm where we raised chickens (laying hens) and we used a lot of chicken feed. Did not have bulk feed delivered...everything came in 50 lb bags. My dad worked a deal with local Purina feed store where we would split a boxcar load and then unload it on a team track somewhere since the feed store owner did not have tracks at his store. After each visit to boxcar, I put a tag on the door to determine if anyone had tampered with it. Never had a problem with that but that was different era.
I lost track of how many loads of chicken feed I eventually loaded, hauled then unloaded (alone) at our farm using a beat up 1950 Ford pickup. Not fun but helped a young guy build muscle. When I left to go to collage, dad finally invested in bulk feed delivery along with a system to feed the chickens.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
As I understand it, some railroads used a special LCL car with a rider if there were a lot of LCL freight on a line. Some railroads had special side-door cabooses for express or LCL which could handle smallish shipments, like a box of hammers or crate of nails etc. The LCL would be dropped off at the depot and be picked up by the recipient there. ("Hey, if you're going by the feed store, tell Bob there's a box here for him!")
kasskabooseI model the 1980s and have a few boxcars. It makese sense to have them serve one customer, but would delivering material to other cusotmers along the way create logistical and financial issues?
By the 1980's the LCL rates may not have been offered for "boxcar" service, it most likely would have been all TOFC rates. If there isn't a rate, you can't ship it.
In the 1980s, what would have been LCL was the province of freight forwarders and trucks. A lot of the long distance stuff traveled in piggyback trailers to larger terminals. Here, it was broken down and that destined for points short of the next terminal, went by regional truck and in some cases, by bus! The local freight train handled carload freight only. The regional truck could cover a 500 mile "district" in eight to ten hours. The long local could take two days, or more depending on how many customers the railroad had along that stretch of track, and how active they were.
To Kasskaboose I submit: Three lumber yards owned by the same company, are receiving orders of lumber, ordered under the corporate name and shipped on the same flatcar. Town A is 20 miles east of Town B, which is 30 miles from Town C. This car is going to be set out and, picked up at each point. The local only runs once a day, so once the car is spotted, it cannot move until the next day. These moves are hauls, not simple respots due to the distances involved. I'm not into freight rates and all of that green eyeshade business but, that could be an expensive carload of wood! The railroads were glad to get out of the LCL business because the could eliminate freight stations, agents, damage, and pilferage, plus a mountain of paper work and just focus on the big picture. Intermodal and unit trains.
NHTX In the 1980s, what would have been LCL was the province of freight forwarders and trucks. A lot of the long distance stuff traveled in piggyback trailers to larger terminals. Here, it was broken down and that destined for points short of the next terminal, went by regional truck and in some cases, by bus! The local freight train handled carload freight only. The regional truck could cover a 500 mile "district" in eight to ten hours. The long local could take two days, or more depending on how many customers the railroad had along that stretch of track, and how active they were. To Kasskaboose I submit: Three lumber yards owned by the same company, are receiving orders of lumber, ordered under the corporate name and shipped on the same flatcar. Town A is 20 miles east of Town B, which is 30 miles from Town C. This car is going to be set out and, picked up at each point. The local only runs once a day, so once the car is spotted, it cannot move until the next day. These moves are hauls, not simple respots due to the distances involved. I'm not into freight rates and all of that green eyeshade business but, that could be an expensive carload of wood! The railroads were glad to get out of the LCL business because the could eliminate freight stations, agents, damage, and pilferage, plus a mountain of paper work and just focus on the big picture. Intermodal and unit trains.
The stack train almost failed but,science found a way to save them. See October 2017 issue of Trains magazine.
As far as single car shippers some of the class one railroads find it a necessary evil.
Some railroads sell or leases busy industrial leads to either a Port Authority or short line operators.
BRAKIE The stack train almost failed but,science found a way to save them. See October 2017 issue of Trains magazine.
I'll do just that, if I ever have a copy of the magazine.
So far, I haven't found a multi stop waybill in my collection. Most of my collection is a large clipped holder with waybills, some are copies of waybills, used to bill the customers on a portion of the Illinois Central's Iowa Division from April 1967 to August 1968. (I found it in an antique store a few years ago.) Many of them are on waybills from long fallen flags or show routings on long gone routes. There's even a few livestock waybills. The strangest load I've come across was for a load of crushed oyster shells. It was going to a farm supply company. I did note that if a shipper's facility provided more than one item, that the load to the receiver may by multiple items. For example, fencing materials. One receiver had ordered all the items necessary to build a barbed wire fence. It included on the waybill; steel fence posts, spools of barbed wire, and items to attach the wire to the posts.
I do have a link to a Rock Island Yard Clerk's manual pdf. The manual shows just about everything you need to know from car movement to crew calling. It dates from the late 60s/early 70s. On page 102, out of 313, the section on waybills begins. The example given is a carload of canned meat from a packing plant in Trenton, MO going to Phoenix AZ with a stop off in Flagstaff AZ.
www.snugglebunny.us/_bigfiles/RI_Yard_Clerk's_Manual.pdf
Thanks for sharing that marvelous booklet. Or maybe book. Whatever.
Anyway, it's quite informative, especially since it's direct from the railroad.
7j43kI'll do just that, if I ever have a copy of the magazine. Ed
Ed,There is several excellent back issues of Trains you can order that covers a lot of issues the railroads face including the possibility of crewless trains in the future...
The scary part is they already have the technology.
I fully believe every modeler that is interested in operation should have a ETT from their favorite railroad and study the operation rules of the GCOR including the use of the horns during switching . In doing so will enhance operation without guess work.
http://1405.utu.org/Files/%5B4886%5DBNSF-GCOR%202011-08-01_gcor_updated.pdf
BRAKIEI fully believe every modeler that is interested in operation should have a ETT from their favorite railroad and study the operation rules of the GCOR
I fully support finding prototype timetables and rule books to help in modeling, the caveat I would add is to find them for the era in which you are interested. While the GCOR is a very common rule book now (and there are others), it is VERY different from rule books prior to 1985. Generally rule books of the same era have the same concepts, but there are details that vary by year and railroad. Rules also vary due to the technology used by the railroads. A 1930's rule book won't have a section on radio rules. If you go back before the 1960's, headlights won't be required during the day, if you go back before 1900 there is no Rule 17 dimming of lights, color light signals are red for stop, green for caution and white for clear and a grade crossing signal is two longs and two shorts.
jeffhergert So far, I haven't found a multi stop waybill in my collection.
So far, I haven't found a multi stop waybill in my collection.
As I understand it, the waybill shows where the car is coming from, and where it's going to. If a freight or passenger train had an LCL car, it wouldn't be 'going' anywhere, in that it's not set out anywhere. The items going to town A would be unloaded at town A's depot, then the car would go to town B, C etc. all the way to the end of the line.