The D&RGW had a lot of on line industry from coal to oil/natural gas to manufacturing, agriculture, military munitions, ore, steel, limestone, food processing, and livestock transportation that all originated from somewhere along the Rio Grande route
if you want a true insite into the D&RGW till about 1960 get hold of a copy of Robert Athearn's book , orignaly called the rebel of the rockies then reprinted as The Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad.
Here's some helpful links.
https://www.american-rails.com/western-pacific.html
https://www.american-rails.com/denver-and-rio-grande-western.html
Does it really matter if the WP and D&RGW are "bridge lines" if you model them and are satisfied what does the definition of the line type matter?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
xboxtravis7992Oh and the WP was an empty bridge line so devoid of nothing that all it left Rob was the choice to protolance?
Are you enjoying yourself there? Way to bring a discussion to a halt by making unreal comments.
Cheers
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761coal traffic was one of the biggest if not the biggest online source of traffic and much of it went offline
Russell
The RF&P was the classic bridge line. Only 3% of the traffic handled originated on the line. Plenty of customers on that 120 miles of main line. Except most of it was inbound or just passing through.
Being a bridge line doesn't mean it's "empty" or doesn't have online industries. It means the biggest chunk of the tonnage it moved was bridge traffic...railroad B hauls freight cars from railroad A to railroad C, or several railroads serve city A and several others city B, and a railroad runs between cities A and B moving the various other railroad's freight back and forth between the two.
Probably the latter would be the best analogy for the Rio Grande - several railroads that didn't go across the Rockies had their freight hauled by the DRGW across the mountains so the cars could ultimately be sent to the railroads west of the mountains.
Oh and the WP was an empty bridge line so devoid of nothing that all it left Rob was the choice to protolance? Just saying the WP in the era Rob models had he followed the prototypical Elko-Salt Lake Route would have still had multiple industries, three to four salt plants in Tooele County, a copper smelter, an interchange with a foreign road (the Nevada Northern), a branchline to another foreign road connection (the Tooele Valley Railway), and a joint trackage line with the SP between Elko and Wells (depending on the date to don't forget the sparesely used UP interchange in Wells which connected to both the SP and the WP there). Don't forget the limestone plants along the line to. I don't know the dates the incenerators, MagCorp, the nuclear waste dump and the potash plant in Wendover started.... they might have been post-WP era additions to the line... but still all big rail traffic sources in the area. If anything the problem the WP had in that area was not a lack of industries... but an over abundance of large industries just very well spaced apart. Even to this day, UP tends to be hauling 40+ carloads out on the transfer local from Roper to Stauffer daily (I tend to catch the train on the drive home from work regularly, and its amazing how long they are compared to almost any other local in the area). If anything Rob's fictional route along the north side of the Great Salt Lake avoids those industries more so than it adds industrial opportunities (grain silos... a common sight north of the lake near Corrinne, but completely absent on the south side for example; are great layout switching opportunities in a much smaller footprint than say a copper smelter).*P.S. To he who said earlier the Bingham & Garfield never connected to the Rio Grande... mind the branchlines... https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1AT3gWi8z-KWXhjoTSOJjvM57G7U&ll=40.63214623588861%2C-112.02398266894533&z=11
csxns riogrande5761 D&RGW a bridge route? Yes, I think so. How many on line industries did the D&RGW have ?
riogrande5761 D&RGW a bridge route? Yes, I think so.
How many on line industries did the D&RGW have ?
I don't know the answer and obviously those numbers would vary over time and depend on when, but I've been a fan of the D&RGW RR since the 1980's and it has always been called a bridge route by those who know more than me, because the D&RGW took freight from connections in Denver and Pueblo CO and passed them off in SLC Utah to connecting railroads.
During the 1960's and following, coal traffic was one of the biggest if not the biggest online source of traffic and much of it went offline to Texas, Indiana, Southern California, and elsewhere.
Of course there was online traffic but from discussion on the Rio Grande io groups (formerly yahoogroups) it's fairly sparce. Sparce isn't good for model railroaders if they want to switch online industries but this is often why modelers will protolance, so they can bend reality to get somethine more suitable to them while keeping the flavor and look of the prototype. This is what Rob Spangler has done very nicely with his wp8thsub if I understand correctly.
wjstix Sometimes you have to define a railroad by it's primary role. This doesn't imply it's the only thing it did or does. Ask any railfan about the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry, and they'll tell you it was an iron ore railroad. That's true, that was it's primary role. However, it was also a common carrier, interchanging with several other railroads and serving a large number of on-line customers; it also ran passenger trains into the 1960's.
Sometimes you have to define a railroad by it's primary role. This doesn't imply it's the only thing it did or does.
Ask any railfan about the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry, and they'll tell you it was an iron ore railroad. That's true, that was it's primary role. However, it was also a common carrier, interchanging with several other railroads and serving a large number of on-line customers; it also ran passenger trains into the 1960's.
Or its sister, the Bessemer and Lake Erie. Shuttling ore south and coal north.
Except they also handled every single Pullman-Standard built car to come out of the Butler plant.
riogrande5761D&RGW a bridge route? Yes, I think so.
wjstixSometimes you have to define a railroad by it's primary role. This doesn't imply it's the only thing it did or does.
I would have thought it went without saying but I forget myself here at times.
D&RGW a bridge route? Yes, I think so.
If you drive through Iowa, or parts of Illinois, with rail atlas at hand and with some advance prep work looking at Google satellite view, it can be astounding how dense the railroading was in the prime years and how close together some major interchanges are or were in those states. I think that is Koester's point: that if what you seek is multiple interchanges on one layout of average size, you can do so fairly realistically by modeling one of the granger roads in states such as Iowa without making it too compressed.
Dave Nelson
xboxtravis7992Kennecott Copper's mining railroad & its predecessor the Bingham & Garfield DRGW branchlines such as the Park City, Little Cottonwood, Heber, Marysvale and Tintic branches. A joint line with the Utah Railway (not much interchange going on there, but joint lines do offer good modeling opportunities) Carbon County Railway DRGW Cane Creek Branch Uintah Railroad Denver and Salt Lake Railroad (remember the Moffat Line was not part of the DRGW until 1947... meaning its entirety counts as an interchange route with the DRGW)
xboxtravis7992Just wanted to put in my two cents on the subject. Just because the rail network in the hills is not a patchwork of regular interchanges doesn't mean the smaller interchagnes aren't out there!
Mountain railroads have fewer interchanges because the number of routes are restricted by the terrain. You can cross Iowa or Ohio on any one of a hundred routes, there are only a few feasible routes across the Rockies.
Of the "interchanges" you listed, several were DRGW branches so they aren't intechanges at all, they are still part of the DRGW.
And most of the rest are small short lines that don't connect to anything else for a through route. The B&G connects to the UP and WP, but only to connect the B&G to those roads. There is no connection through the B&G between the UP, WP or DRGW. That is much different than "normal" interchanges that can serve as an intermediate through connection.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
"DRGW, bridge line? I don't think so...".
Perhaps you should join the DRGW@groups.io and post the above title there and see what kind of feedback you will get. There are people who know the D&RGW very well there and should be able to discuss this with you.
One of my favorite Kalmbach authors is Tony Koester. I have enjoyed all of the books from him I have read, and he has a technical prose style that delves into the 'theoretical' side of the hobby I like.However, one of his statements he uses in comparising flatland railroads vs. mountain railroads has always seemed a little off to me... He has used this comparison a few times in his books so rather than quote it word for word I will just give the spark note version:
Now... this comparison has always irked me a little bit. Looking at a map of the Class One network (especially in the later years of the line such as the 1970's or 80's) does make it seem like the DRGW is just a lone wolf in a vast mountain range. A "bridge line" it seems. But looking at the smaller regional railroads and branchlines in different eras of the route gives a more comprehensive picture... I think it is fair to use these isolated branchlines and treat them as interchanges, even though its corporately the same railroad; the branchline peddler local would be bringing things to a mainline pick-up very similar to a foreign railroad interchange. For example a small list (not comprehensive) of some of the branchlines and regionals the DRGW crossed with between SLC and Denver included:
I am not as familiar with the other shortlines and branches the DRGW met with in Colorado, so I will not continue beyond the above examples (feel free to add your own with the DRGW, or other "interchange" examples with other mountain railroads).
The main point of this list is to basically state that just because a line is a mountain railroad running through rather isolated terrority doesn't mean it is an island to itself. Sure, compared to the flatlands railroads were the close knit interchanges were made with other Class One railroads with possibly hundreds of cars being traded at a crossing diamond; these smaller lines in the mountain probably don't offer all the operational potential Koester describes in his writing. However, a good modeler with a keen eye for detail paying attention at the branches and shortlines in the mountain areas can make a decent list of potential interchange and operational choices for mountain railroads. Furthermore, the isolated nature of mountain lines means many of the interchanges have unique characters narrow gauges, coal, copper, oil, etc are all modeling opportunities which can be exploited in a mountain line. Just because a Class One goes by its lonesome into a big mountain, doesn't mean it will remain alone there for all its years! The DRGW itself is a prime example of how a lone Class One in the high mountains can pave the way for future shortlines and branches to feed into it. I am sure similar examples of high mountain and isolated interchanges can be found in lines such as the WP and other mountain routes to.
Just wanted to put in my two cents on the subject. Just because the rail network in the hills is not a patchwork of regular interchanges doesn't mean the smaller interchagnes aren't out there!