Hi all,
Seeking some input again. For my produce operation (1930's era shortline-served industry), I'd like to model icing operations if I can, but I don't really have the room for a separate icehouse and platform without blocking the view to the spur and the industry. So it has to go. And based on where it is, the old "icehouse in the aisle" trick won't work.
I've read in older threads that cars could be ordered pre-iced, which I can live with. But I remember reading/seeing somewhere that some shippers that dealt with reefers had an icing facility on a floor above the loading dock, so that while reefers were being loaded on the dock, there would be guys on the second floor icing them, eliminating the need for a separate icing facility. Has anyone else heard of this, or maybe can point me to a reference?
My second question has to do with car types and plausible use. In my era, I know that the Pflauder milk cars were in widespread use, but what I'm wondering is if, (since my produce operation also serves as a milk collection/shipping point) it's plausible to use reefers for milk as well. I think it would be, considering many rural milk runs used uninsulated boxcars, so the Pflauder cars were obviously not a necessity, but I'm wondering if an actual coop would take the easy way out or if they would get a specific car, or if it would depend on the volume of product being shipped.
- Adam
When all else fails, wing it!
The produce packing houses in Redlands California and other nearby towns didn’t have their own ice house. All of their cars arrived pre-cooled from the ice house a few miles away in San Bernardino. It was located at the end of the yard. San Bernardino was the hub for all produce leaving southern California. So you could put your ice house operation in a completely different location on your layout or even have it in your hidden staging area.
Kanamodel has a small ice house
http://www.kanamodel.com/Premium%20Kits.htm#CNR%20500%20TON%20ICE%20HOUSE
They also have a coal and ice house which is more suitable for a background building
http://www.kanamodel.com/Premium%20Kits.htm#MORROW%20COAL
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
As I understand it, unprocessed 'straight from the farm' milk has a certain amount of time until it starts to go bad, don't recall what it is but I think it's less than 24 hours - maybe more like 12-16? Anyway, if a train is making a milk run to pick up fresh milk and bring it to a dairy or other processing plant, it wouldn't have to be in reefers if it was going to be able to be processed within that time frame. If it's longer than that, using reefers to cool the milk would (I would assume) extend the time until it went bad.
I think the milk tankcars were probably used where there was a lot of milk being collected at a remote location and being sent a good distance to a major market, like milk from farms in say upstate New York being sent to New York City, or from maybe western Massachusetts to Boston.
Otherwise, I think compared to now there were many more 'local' dairies, receiving milk by rail from relatively near by (with a few hours by rail) that were processing the fresh milk and getting it delivered to the public (by actual horsepower or dairy truck) the next day. In that situation I don't think you'd have to use reefers to collect the milk.
Some reading about milk trains, milk sheds and their history.
http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/libraryData/milktrains.pdf
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Hey all,
Thanks for the info so far.
LoneWolf - pre-cooling like you mention seems to have been a fairly common practice, and that's why I won't sweat it too much if I can't implement an icing situation on my layout visibly. That part is in the "druthers" side of the equation, and dispensable. I might be able to put the icing elsewhere, but given the space considerations, I may be better off skipping it.
BigDaddy - If I do find a way, it'll probably be with that kit you pointed out. Thanks for those links. That site has some other buildings that caught my eye as well.
Stix - That's the impression I get as well from the reading I've been doing. Where my line is set up, it would only be about 40-80 miles to the dairy, depending on which one it goes to. So taking that into consideration, it would certainly be less than a day's trip, even with the stops a shortline local might make getting the milk to the main for the through freight to pick up. So I could even set up the operation as to assume the shipment of individual milk cans in a box car or pre-cooled reefer and be within the realm of physical plausibility, if not practical operation. And since this area would only generate one or two carloads a day, they might not bother with the milk tankers.
Rick - Thanks for that link. There's a lot of useful info in there, and it gave me some ideas to try operationally on my line, not just what kind of cars to use. An interesting read.
I know 40' reefers were loaded with ice machines, but does anyone know when actual electric powered reefers replace them?
I have an Athearn 40' ice reefer in my transition era freight train, am I modeling late 1948 to maybe 1956 or 1957?
In 1958 the first mechanical reefers (utilizing diesel-powered refrigeration units) entered revenue service. Some ice cooled reefers remained in service until 1970.
Lone Wolf: Now that's a useful piece of information I hadn't considered for my 1954 era layout. So, out with the mechanical refeers, and in with an ice house and/or platform.
Lonehawk Hi all, Seeking some input again. For my produce operation (1930's era shortline-served industry), I'd like to model icing operations if I can, but I don't really have the room for a separate icehouse and platform without blocking the view to the spur and the industry.
Seeking some input again. For my produce operation (1930's era shortline-served industry), I'd like to model icing operations if I can, but I don't really have the room for a separate icehouse and platform without blocking the view to the spur and the industry.
If I understand the original post, you're talking about an icing facility at the dairy? That would be very rare. The railroad would assemble the milk train in one of their yards (icing the cars from their icing facility if necessary), then run the milk train, and deliver the loaded cars to the dairy. If the dairy sent out cars with processed milk, butter or cream for market, the railroad would deliver the cars pre-iced at their own railroad icing facility. They wouldn't deliver "hot" cars and expect the dairy to cool them.
There were "ice service cars" that would be used to ice reefers where access to an ice house was not available. Either the train or ice service car would move along the adjacent track and the reefers would get iced.
It makes for an interesting modeling project.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
You don't need platforms or ice houses to serve reefers with ice!
The iceman could bring it right to you as the picture in the link shows.
I highly recommend this book from Jeff Wilson if your interested in reefer operations!
https://www.amazon.ca/Produce-Traffic-Trains-Railroaders-Industries/dp/1627005048
I have an original steel Hershey Creamery milk can. It has a white inner coating of some kind. Used to move the raw milk from the dairy farm to the creamery. It is fairly large and quite heavy with a tight fitting lid and two good size handles to lift it with. Probably moved in iced reefers to the creamery.
Ira Goldberg
There was a two-part series on milk cars and the dairy industry in the February and March 1986 issues of RMC.Milk was originally shipped in milk cans, loaded into either baggage cars or boxcars, and was not always iced or cooled, as most trips to the large dairies were under 100 miles. When cooling was required, it was usually done by placing blocks of ice on and/or around the milk cans.As cities grew, the need for more dairy products also grew, necessitating a wider field of collection, which in-turn spurred development of purpose-built milk cars. In conjunction with that, dairies began creating collection dairies to which the farmers brought their milk, rather than to the local station or their own on-line platform.These collection points stored the milk in tanks and cooled it, and the milk cars (looking, for the most part like express reefers, but with two glass-lined tanks inside) would be spotted there for loading. Loading (and unloading) was done by connecting pipes from the milk storage tanks to the tanks in the cars, but while the cars were being loaded, the cars' tanks would also be cooled. This was done by connecting pipes from the dairy's cooling system to brine coils within the tanks in the car. Some cars also had agitation systems, run by electricity from the dairy. This helped to keep the milk and butterfat mixed and also kept the pre-cooled milk at even temperatures.Some of these collector-type dairies would fully load one or a number of cars, while others might not load all of even one car. For the latter situation, the train would spot the partially-loaded car at the next dairy, and wait until the product from that point was loaded, then proceed to the next location.
So, for early operations, where milk was picked-up by the railroad in cans, and travelled to a nearby town, icing was not required. If it was, a few blocks of ice on a wagon or flatbed truck could be spotted trackside at the points where the cans were loaded. For longer distances or more modern times (1931 was the peak year for rail movement of milk), dedicated milk cars (Athearn offered some nice ones, as shown below) would be more appropriate.
Most early milk cars were apparently owned by the railroads, while the later ones, equipped with tanks, were owned or leased by the dairies.
While my layout is set in the late '30s, most of the milk pick-ups, especially in the small towns, will be of the cans-in-a-baggage-car-type.
Wayne
caldreamerI have an original steel Hershey Creamery milk can. It has a white inner coating of some kind. Used to move the raw milk from the dairy farm to the creamery. It is fairly large and quite heavy with a tight fitting lid and two good size handles to lift it with....
Apparently, the empty cans weighed 27lbs. and held 86lbs. of milk, meaning that almost a third of the load in a milk car was the dead weight of the cans. That, plus the fact that milk regularly sloshed out of the cans and that the cans had to be cleaned and sterilised, plus the time and expense to return the empty cans to the farmer (each farmer had to have two sets of cans - one at the dairy, and one to be filled at the farm) hastened the development of the dedicated milk cars with the internal tanks.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe In 1958 the first mechanical reefers (utilizing diesel-powered refrigeration units) entered revenue service. Some ice cooled reefers remained in service until 1970.
Actually, the first mechanical reefers were built in 1949 (wikipedia is wrong).
https://books.google.com/books?id=_8qQS0ZNCTIC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=first+mechanical+reefer&source=bl&ots=80Ejo1r3qB&sig=L8we1SxA79ARgQH7BKfgy_9i2Wo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXwtijyIffAhUh0FkKHX6WCjw4ChDoATACegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=first%20mechanical%20reefer&f=false
By 1958, lots of frozen food was being moved by mechanical reefers.
Sheldon
Lone Wolf & Santa Fe, ATSF Guy, and Owen W in California;
Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society's Santa Fe Railway Rolling Stock Reference Series-Volume Six, entitled Mechanical Refrigerator Cars and Insulated Refrigerator cars of the Santa Fe Railway 1949-1988 states, Fruit Growers Express, Western Fruit Express and, Burlington Refrigerator Express Company collaborated in the building of experimental refrigerator cars, in 1948. In 1949, Santa Fe built their first experimental mechanical reefer, SFRD 12000 from 40 foot ice bunker Rr-46 class car, SFRD 23357.
In 1953 both PFE and Santa Fe put small fleets of 25 and 30 mechanicals respectively, on the road. While Santa Fe's cars were for service, PFE's were for evaluation. Another 155 cars were acquired in 1955, bringing the total SFRC Mechanical Temperature Control cars to 185. By 1956 mechanical refrigeration was widely accepted, especialy for the transportation of frozen products. Yes, steam pulled mechanicals before 1958!
In the instance of icing a small number if reefers, I don't know if it would be appropriate for the eras some of you model, but has anyone considered the scissor lift truck that elevates the cargo body to the height of the ice hatches? Small, non-railroad ice plants were contracted with Pacific Fruit Express to service a handful of cars in smaller towns, for either pre-cooling or topping off the bunkers after loading. The plant that makes the ice is off layout so a building and stage are unnecessary. All you need is a section of track where the truck can pull up alongside the cars needing ice.
Random and isolated thoughts.
I recall a prototype drawing for a steel ice bunker reefer in MR that said that the prototype was one of the last if not the last ice bunker cars built, and its date was 1958 if I recall correctly. Perhaps that is where this 1958 date originates? I still saw wood ice bunker reefers into the 1960s and a friend photographed one on a siding in 1975.
I was always intrigued by the fact that some famous railroad bridges were said to have been seriously weakened and damaged by the constant dripping of salty brine from leaking ice bunker reefers. The Cairo bridge in IL was one such. So it wasn't just better refrigeration for frozen foods that made railroads interested in mechanical alternatives to ice.
Thermo King made retrofit outfits that enabled an ice bunker reefer to be remade into a mechanical reefer. It was a refrigerator unit somewhat resembling what a truck trailer used, and would be mounted into the steel end of the ice bunker reefer (I never saw a photo of one mounted on a wood-ended reefer). Some out fit made the detail part for HO in cast metal, but I cannot find it in the current Walthers catalog. And one or another of the trainset quality manufacturers had a model of such a car as well.
While I cannot say that regular reefers were never used for "milk runs," I doubt if they would have been fully iced for that service. On the C&NW and perhaps eastern roads as well, at most they'd shovel some chip ice on top of the milk cans in the warmer months.
I have seen photos of specialized trucks that would drive up next to a reefer and re-ice it (or more likely, "top off" the ice that was already there). So lacking space for an icehouse and platform, a kitbashed vehicle of some sort could be your icing method.
Dave Nelson
doctorwayne Milk was originally shipped in milk cans, loaded into either baggage cars or boxcars, and was not always iced or cooled, as most trips to the large dairies were under 100 miles. When cooling was required, it was usually done by placing blocks of ice on and/or around the milk cans.As cities grew, the need for more dairy products also grew, necessitating a wider field of collection, which in-turn spurred development of purpose-built milk cars. In conjunction with that, dairies began creating collection dairies to which the farmers brought their milk, rather than to the local station or their own on-line platform.These collection points stored the milk in tanks and cooled it, and the milk cars (looking, for the most part like express reefers, but with two glass-lined tanks inside) would be spotted there for loading. Loading (and unloading) was done by connecting pipes from the milk storage tanks to the tanks in the cars, but while the cars were being loaded, the cars' tanks would also be cooled. This was done by connecting pipes from the dairy's cooling system to brine coils within the tanks in the car. Some cars also had agitation systems, run by electricity from the dairy. This helped to keep the milk and butterfat mixed and also kept the pre-cooled milk at even temperatures.Some of these collector-type dairies would fully load one or a number of cars, while others might not load all of even one car. For the latter situation, the train would spot the partially-loaded car at the next dairy, and wait until the product from that point was loaded, then proceed to the next location.
Milk was originally shipped in milk cans, loaded into either baggage cars or boxcars, and was not always iced or cooled, as most trips to the large dairies were under 100 miles. When cooling was required, it was usually done by placing blocks of ice on and/or around the milk cans.As cities grew, the need for more dairy products also grew, necessitating a wider field of collection, which in-turn spurred development of purpose-built milk cars. In conjunction with that, dairies began creating collection dairies to which the farmers brought their milk, rather than to the local station or their own on-line platform.These collection points stored the milk in tanks and cooled it, and the milk cars (looking, for the most part like express reefers, but with two glass-lined tanks inside) would be spotted there for loading. Loading (and unloading) was done by connecting pipes from the milk storage tanks to the tanks in the cars, but while the cars were being loaded, the cars' tanks would also be cooled. This was done by connecting pipes from the dairy's cooling system to brine coils within the tanks in the car. Some cars also had agitation systems, run by electricity from the dairy. This helped to keep the milk and butterfat mixed and also kept the pre-cooled milk at even temperatures.Some of these collector-type dairies would fully load one or a number of cars, while others might not load all of even one car. For the latter situation, the train would spot the partially-loaded car at the next dairy, and wait until the product from that point was loaded, then proceed to the next location.
This is extremely helpful. My plans have evolved somewhat since I originally wrote this thread (which I thought was dead.... lol), but I still have the produce house/milk collection point in the plans. Being that I'm going to run a rural short-line setup, this approach seems to make sense.
When my grandfather shipped milk by rail, all of the cans were held in a spring house prior to use. The spring houses temp was generally about 42F. This would allow up to 28hrs before being unloaded. Those milk cans were VERY good at keeping stuff cold. (we still use one truck camping. Fill a 1/3 full with Ice. Top ice off with water until the ice freely floats, add beverage of choice. When reaching in reach fast, otherwise expect a very cold hand.)
The precooler in San Bernardino was used to precool LOADED reefers. I've talked to former precooler staff and they stated enptyreefers very, very rarely were precooled and this was done "off the books" because there was a charge for the service. The only reason this was done was for cars that were pre-iced (another charge) on extremely hot days precooling the interior lessened meltage so the car receiver would get more of the ice they paid for.
Very wrong. Fruit Growers Express put mechanical reefers into service in 1949. Santa Fe (SFRD) and PFE did so in 1953.
"The produce packing houses in Redlands California and other nearby towns didn’t have their own ice house."
Actually, a number of packing houses did have their own icing facilities because ice was an expensive commodity to buy from the railroad. See Jim Lancaster's website: Packing Houses and Other Structures in Southern California (coastdaylight.com)
We have other threads with extensive coverage of various kinds of icing operation.
If it 'paid' a particular facility or dock to have a 'double deck' facilitating icing, they would build one -- and I have seen pictures of them. Whether or not the mechanical ice making plant was located on that elevated deck or used some sort of conveyor or elevator would, again, be a matter of perceived economics.
There is also evidence of 'outsourced' ice service capable of reaching both 'ice decks' and individual car hatches (including the scissorlift bodies similar to equipment used for residential coal delivery that NHTX mentioned in 2018). I would expect to see more 'specialty outsourcing' in the waning years of iced vs. mechanical reefers, but as I don't know, I won't comment further than that.
While we are on this general topic, were any mechanical reefer designs that used axle generation like passenger cars successful vs. designs with Enginators or self-contained engine-driven refrigeration?
Jeff Wilson has authored two excellent books about milk and produce handling. One thing I learned was that milk tank cars did not require cooling. The tanks were so well insulated that one example he gave indicated that in 100 hours, the temperature of the milk had only risen 2 degrees. Milk that was transported in cans would often be put in baggage/express cars and top iced to keep them cool in transport.
As for produce, the requirements varied greatly depending on the commodity, location, time of year, temperatures, etc. This would dictate how often icing was needed before mechanical refrigeration became an option. In some cases, heaters would have to be placed in the ice bunkers to keep the produce from getting too cold.