PEDWho buils up the loco arrangement?
The number of locomotives is usually set by a system policy.
Which locomotives are on the train are usualy set jointly by the diesel shop/service track foreman and the manager/chief dispatcher/asst chief dispatcher responsible for locomotive distribution.
What order the locomotives are on the train is generally set by the service track/diesel shop foreman (complying with policy and maybe with concurrance of the manager/chief dispatcher/asst chief dispatcher responsible for locomotive distribution.)
Generally the foreman chooses sets that require the least amount of cutting and swapping around and still meets the guidelines.
Foremen really don't care what condition the paint is in, it doesn't matter, they aren't going to paint the engine at the service track in any circumstance. What care about is is it the right unit, is it equipped properly, is it running, does it have enough supplies to get to where its going?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
PED Who buils up the loco arrangement? On the BNSF, I frequently see a lead loco with the legacy Santa Fe paint even if it looks shabby compared to the shiny BNSF locos behind it. Is that due to preferences of the engineer?
Who buils up the loco arrangement? On the BNSF, I frequently see a lead loco with the legacy Santa Fe paint even if it looks shabby compared to the shiny BNSF locos behind it. Is that due to preferences of the engineer?
I can't speak for the BNSF but in and around Philadelphia cab signals and now PTC are required for most if not all road movements so the lead unit will need that equipment.
Just an N scale guy in an HO scale world.
Reading Railroad in a small space.
Agreements between the unions and railroads also determine locomotive consists. When the Penn Central folded the power of the New York Central, Pennsylvania, and New Haven into one big pool, NYC's agreement stipulated NYC power would have high-backed, comfortable seats while PRR and NH did not. When an NYC crew was called for a train led by a PRR or NH unit, they refused to take it, citing the union agreement they were working under, since PC had not negotiated a new agreement under the PC banner. End result: Find an NYC unit to lead and shuffle the consist. What makes no sense on the surface could have many invisble factors behind it. That 40 year old SD-40-2 leading those newer high horsepower units may have the creature comforts, signal equipment or other goodies those newer, run-through units don't have and, to honor a written agreement, the old guy with the goodies takes the point.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
dehusmanToday, b will show.oth GP38s and SD40s are considered "yard" or "local" power, so are once again, pretty much the same thing. 40 years ago they were considered very different.
Actually both NS and CSX uses rebuit SD40-2 in main line freights as any modern you tube railroad video will show.
Look closer and there are SD40-2s from the locomotive lease companies that is in main line service.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NILEWhat types of engines were rated for different speeds?
The "speed" of an engine is based on its wheel diameter, gearing, and intended purpose. Nominally the vast majority of engines are geared to support 65-70 mph, the typical top end for freight service. Passenger engines are geared for 80-120 mph service. In addition, certain rairoads geared certain engines higher for higher speed service, like TOFC service, but those were mostly in the early days of the 2nd generation power.
Today virtually all the engines are rated for 65-70 mph service except passenger units that may be geared higher.
EMD typically used 62:15 gearing with 40" wheels on engines up through the 50 series. SD60 and better had 77:17 gearing and 40" wheels, the SD70's had 77:17 gearing and 42" wheels. GE C44-9 had a 74:18 gearing and 42" wheels.
Basically they can all run together.
What is different is the short term rating of engines, particularly the older ones. On older, non-AC engines they had a minum speed they could be operated at maximum amperage. If you ran too slow pulling too much power, you could overheat the traction motors. Generally the higher the gear ration the higher the speed, the lower the horsepower, the higher the speed. A high geared engine couldn't be used in drag service.
With more modern engines, the minimum speeds are so low and with AC engines its basically not a problem so modern engineers with modern engines don't need to worry about it. But if you mix older and newer engines and load them up at slow speed, you can burn up the traction motors of the older engines.
Because of that many railroads avoided mixing the new high horsepower engines with older engines, especially 4 axle engines. If you have 2 C44AC's and add a GP-7 you actually can haul less tonnage up a hill than the 2 C44AC's because the short term rating of the GP reduces how much the whole consist can pull.
NILE This is a great thread. Some much information about how the railroads used power together. I model both 1st generation diesels and moden power. What types of engines were rated for different speeds? Was it as simple as passenger versus frieght locomotives? Are frieght locomotives rated for different speeds? Are modern locomotives rated differently, or are they purely horsepower? Thanks.
This is a great thread. Some much information about how the railroads used power together. I model both 1st generation diesels and moden power. What types of engines were rated for different speeds? Was it as simple as passenger versus frieght locomotives? Are frieght locomotives rated for different speeds? Are modern locomotives rated differently, or are they purely horsepower?
Thanks.
BigDaddyI feel like I need those flash cards, like they used in WW2 to identify ship and airplane silhouettes.
Locomotive Spotter cards...
Wait is that a thing? Because if its not, it definitely should be. I wonder who you would talk to get the ball rolling on something like that. Given that there are only 52 (or is it 54 with jokers, we would come up short with all the external differences). I guess you would have a deck for each manufacturer?
EMD
GE
Alco
Baldwin (might beable to combine ALCO/Baldwin into a deck)
others?
Or maybe by time periods
Early diesels/1st Gen
2nd Generation
etc
NWP SWP Here's one such occasion. Here's three Centennials and two other units on the lead of a train.
Here's one such occasion.
Here's three Centennials and two other units on the lead of a train.
Top photo is SD45 with DD35. Note the flared radiator at the back of the long hood on the lead unit.
Bottom photo second unit back is UP 8057 a SD40-2 which was geared for 80mph service. (Source Utah rails).
http://utahrails.net/articles/up-fast-forties.php
wjstixI think the answer the OP is looking for is more like "GPs are smaller than SDs, and the smaller engines always go in front" or something like that
I think he will be disappointed.
Larger, relatively newer type engines like SD-70s, AC-4400s, GEVOs and such often run together on long mainline freights,
This harks back to my comment on the difference between a real and a model railroader. The real railroads would consider all those engines essentially the same thing. A real railroad sees high horsepower, 6 axle engines.
Otherwise, I often see GP38s and SD-40-2s (or similar engines) working together, occassionally with a newer larger engine.
Era and road dependent. Today, both GP38s and SD40s are considered "yard" or "local" power, so are once again, pretty much the same thing. 40 years ago they were considered very different.
40 years ago engines were equipped for specific service (it was cheaper), now they are generally equipped with everything. It used to be that certain engines had UP cab signals, certain engines had CNW cab signals, certain engines had CNW ATS, certain engines had UP and CNW cab signals, certain engines had CNW cab signals and ATS, and a few engines had all three. Now most road engines come equipped with all three right out of the box, plus PTC. Its now cheaper to equip everything and not have specialized pools.
I think the answer the OP is looking for is more like "GPs are smaller than SDs, and the smaller engines always go in front" or something like that - which was true for steam doubleheaders (not helpers, doubleheaders) but not for diesels. I see CP and BNSF trains every day going to and from work, and I don't know that someone could find too much of a pattern. Larger, relatively newer type engines like SD-70s, AC-4400s, GEVOs and such often run together on long mainline freights, like oil trains going to and from North Dakota. Otherwise, I often see GP38s and SD-40-2s (or similar engines) working together, occassionally with a newer larger engine. GEs and GM products are often together, doesn't seem to be a pattern as to which goes first or who works with who.
Depends. Why are you mixing GP's and SD's? Are they both equipped the same? What are the requirements for the route the train is traveling?
If everything is the same and there are no route restrictions then it doesn't matter.
If one unit has fuel or operating equipment (pace setter, dynamic brakes, Maxi-trac, etc) and the other doesn't, the one equipped leads.
If one has safety equipment (TIR, safety glazing, ditch lights, digital event recorder, rotary beacons, cab signals, PTC, etc) and the other doesn't, the one equipped leads.
If one has crew equipment (high backed seats, better control stand, air conditioning, toilet, 3 or more seats, on board computer, etc.) and the other doesn't, the one equipped leads.
If the GP's are being set out on line to swap local power, then the SD's lead.
So if you were running a mix of GPs and SDs what units would be first?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
wjstixRailroads pretty much used whatever worked.
Sometimes. Depends on the railroad and what type of train. I held two different jobs where I assigned engines to trains and there are patterns, it just might not be obvious. Railroads classify engines differently than modelers or railfans and there are attributes that aren't necessarily visible to railfans that are very "visible" to the railroads.
For example all the trains going through Fremont, NE, before the UP/CNW merger looked like a random mix of engines. But the lead engine on every train was was a special sub-set of both railroad's fleets, units equipped with both the UP's cab signals and the CNW's ATC cab signals.
On the UP certain engines were "black listed" from being on intermodal trains due to their failure history. Something that nobody but the railroad would know.
Railroads pretty much used whatever worked. Sometimes, when new, a group of engines might be run together regularly, but in time they were all mixed together. MN&S sometimes ran 4 EMD end-cab switchers with an SD-39.
There's no particular order to how the consist would go together, except if possible railroads like to have the lead and last trailing engine facing away from each other, so the whole consist wouldn't have to be turned to run back to it's starting point.
Soo Line F3 and F7 A-units didn't have m.u. connections in front, so they would have to be first or last...so F3A-GP9-F7A, with maybe an Alco thrown in the middle too.
BMMECNYC NWP SWP At the club they tend keep power in the same groups so GP10s with GP10s, SD40s with the same, ect... I find it a bit boring, thats why I was asking as my collection grows. This is likely more due to the locomotive models not being speed matched. You can typically pull three new locomotives out of the box from the same manufacturer/manufacturing run and they will run "okay" together. Start mixing manufacturers, and you end up with one unit doing all the work if you haven't speed matched them well. Just a guess.
NWP SWP At the club they tend keep power in the same groups so GP10s with GP10s, SD40s with the same, ect... I find it a bit boring, thats why I was asking as my collection grows.
This is likely more due to the locomotive models not being speed matched. You can typically pull three new locomotives out of the box from the same manufacturer/manufacturing run and they will run "okay" together. Start mixing manufacturers, and you end up with one unit doing all the work if you haven't speed matched them well.
Just a guess.
That would be my guess as well. If using Digitrax two knob controller at least two different makes and model locos. could be speed matched to run together.
.
NWP SWPAt the club they tend keep power in the same groups so GP10s with GP10s, SD40s with the same, ect... I find it a bit boring, thats why I was asking as my collection grows.
I can run two, three, some times four unit matched sets, two, three and again four units in a mixed set and for road names, I can run at least three different road names (PRR-NYC-PC) in the same consist. Never boring. Hows that for variety? I love the PC.
The STRATTON & GILLETTE never mixes models in a locomotive consist. I just like the way it looks better.
There was a railroad, for some reason I think it was the BURLINGTON ROUTE, that ordered GP-9s geared the same as their F units to be used as boosters. They would commonly run consists of F unit A, F unit B, GP-9, F unit A.
I hate the way that looks to have a GP in the middle of an F unit A/B/A set.
In the movie Runaway Train there was an F unit in the middle of the consist that caused problems in getting the train stopped.
I think that is more than enough fiction and conjecture for one post.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Correction, that picture has not three but FOUR Centennials and what appears to be a GeeP.
As far as mixing units I'll take the Bull by the Horns and for the June 2 Op Session at the MSMRC I'll get two Burlington GP10*s and two Burlington SD40-2s and run them as a consist if no one has them on a train. (*I think they're 10s but not completely sure) I'll take a few pictures of them running, which units should lead? Do I sandwich the Geeps between the Seeds or vice versa, or do I alternate Geep, Seed, ect. Or vice versa?
NWP SWP I have heard of railroads typically keeping units of common manufacturers together but do railroads (past and present) typically keep the same model units together? Would a GP40 and SD40 be in the same lashup? would you see SD35s with 40s and 45s?
I have heard of railroads typically keeping units of common manufacturers together but do railroads (past and present) typically keep the same model units together? Would a GP40 and SD40 be in the same lashup? would you see SD35s with 40s and 45s?
D&RGW didn't make a fuss about keeping like road units together. They freeling mixed 4 axle and 6 axle diesels together as evidenced by countless photo's.
Of course they also ran sets of tunnel motors together, and other like types.
Basically you can do what you please if you are freelancing since RR's did what they pleased.
So go ahead, "hook'em" together like those long horns in your siggy
As far as those UP DD engines, unless you have a LARGE layout with large radius curves, you might want to "steer" clear of muing 3 of those together.
IIRC, the DD's were typically ran as a sandwhich, two of them with an SD40-2 in the middle. Athearn ran the UP SD40-2 type a couple years ago which were used with the DD's.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The original concept was that the DD35 was only going to be a B unit and would have a GP35 on each end. That keeps the horsepower per axle even. GP35 = 4 axles 2500 hp, DD35 = 8 axles 5000 hp. The MP did that with GP38's and SD40's. Both units have 500 hp/axle. The SD35's probably didn't run with the DD35's that often.
I wish someone (like Athearn) would produce a DD35, GP35, and SD35 for SP or UP. That'd be a sight a 6 unit set of 2 GeePs, 2 SeeDs, and 2 DeeDs
CNJ and WM did a lot of that too. Found a picture on another forum of a CNJ train with a GP7 in the lead, with an RS3 in the middle and a Trainmaster on the rear.
There a picture in one of the Reading books with an RS3, Alco FB, GP7, and something else (or something like that) which begs to be modeled, mainly because the middle door on the FB is open.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NWP SWPI have heard of railroads typically keeping units of common manufacturers together but do railroads (past and present) typically keep the same model units together? Would a GP40 and SD40 be in the same lashup? would you see SD35s with 40s and 45s?
It all depends on the railroad, the era, the train and the location.
Some railroads kept the same make and model together on some trains and mixed them up on other trains. Some trains always had a certain unit leading. Some trains only had 4 axles, some only six axles.
For example, in the 1990's and 2000's on the UP, coal trains had sets of GE C44AC's almost exclusively. Intermodal trains had sets of C44-9's and SD70's. Meanwhile on manifest (general freight trains) in the southern part of the railroad they could have any 6 axle engines.
On the MP and the RDG 6 axle and 4 axle engines were mixed on road freights.
It just depends. There are vaild reasons for both strategies and both are used by the railroads, possibly even the same railroad at the same time.
I have a video of the Wabash which shows an FM Trainmaster, Alco C424, EMD F7s, GE U25b and EMD GP35 all hauling one train into Detroit from Chicago.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!