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GP-9 Long/Short hood forward?

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GP-9 Long/Short hood forward?
Posted by Storm75 on Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:51 PM

I have a new Athearn Genesis GP-9 (Great Northern) locomotive.

Were they all run short-hood foward, or was it a practice for some lines to run them either way?  I prefer the look of long-hood forward, but notice that my DCC system apparently knows best and defaults to running the short-hood leading.  (I have learned that can be changed in the appropriate CV value.)

New to the DCC world and curious about the prototype practice of how these older diesel locomotives were used?

Thanks!

Mike

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Posted by jrbernier on Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:53 PM

  The builder can set them up per the buyer's preference.  The GN selected long hood forward until the GP30 and U25B locomotives arrived.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, April 26, 2018 7:41 PM

My impression, from the always correct Internet, is that long hood forward was more popular and deemed safer.  Not so sure about the later.  They were several engines that put the engineer right out in front, like the F-3 and the BL-1. 

However, except for cab forwards, engineers always had a view obstructed by a big steam boiler, so a forward long hood was just doing things they way they always had been done.

 

 

Henry

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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:03 PM

Look to see which end of the frame the "F" is painted on.

 

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:24 PM

EMD designed the loco short hood forward, but one of the factory options was long hood forward, placing the engineers control stand on the other side in the other direction.

And I believe some were built with dual control stands rather than having the "third seat" on the firemans side of the cab.

Many railroads did opt for long hood forward on GP7's and GP9's, one needs to research their road of choice. I don't have a list....

By the end of GP9 production, low short hoods were also an option, telling the future of road switcher design.

Long hood forward was just a brief minute in the history of road switchers.

When the GP20 came along in 1959, low short hood forward was standard equipment.

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:25 PM

BigDaddy

My impression, from the always correct Internet, is that long hood forward was more popular and deemed safer.

 

 

Not for GP9's.  They were mostly delivered short-hood front.

I think even the GP7's were more often short-hood front.  You might have to go back to the BL2 or even the NW5 to come up with a model where the long-hood front was more popular.  For EMD.

 

Ed

 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:37 PM

7j43k

 

 
BigDaddy

My impression, from the always correct Internet, is that long hood forward was more popular and deemed safer.

 

 

 

 

Not for GP9's.  They were mostly delivered short-hood front.

I think even the GP7's were more often short-hood front.  You might have to go back to the BL2 or even the NW5 to come up with a model where the long-hood front was more popular.  For EMD.

 

Ed

 

 

The BL2 was short hood forward, all of them I believe. It was essentially an F3 with rear visablity, and its streamlined shape came from the fact that it was still built like an F unit, with a truss side wall that was the structure of the loco.

I think if we did the research, we would find that most GP7's and GP9's were built as EMD designed them, short hood forward. But the precentage of GP7's built long hood forward may be pretty high, 30-40%.

GP9's not nearly so many, but some of the long hood users still clung to that when ordering their GP9's.

BL1 - never sold by EMD, it was the designation of the prototype of the BL2.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:48 PM

 I tend to think more were long hood foorward - bvecause all of the roads surrounding my choice of prototype ran them long hood forward. I have to reverse the motor wires oon all my Proto Geeps because LL built them all to run short hood forward. They do have the F on the correct end for the Reading ones, but they have the crew facing the short hood. Most of the pictures of them when new seem to show long hood forward. Maybe the western roads did differently. Some carried over to second gen power, but most second gen power ran short hood forward. Southern stuck with their high short hood at least all the way up to the GP50.

                                 --Randy

 


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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:49 PM

N&W and Southern Ry. were long hood (actually bi-directional) holdouts in later years:

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/ask-trains/2011/10/running-long-hood-forward

I remember seeing quite a few long-hood forward freights on the former Nickel Plate through Cleveland.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:50 PM

More info:

For example, the B&O ordered its GP7's long hood forward, including a group equiped with steam heat boilers for passenger service.

But by the time they ordered any GP9's, they made the switch to short hood forward, at least for most of them.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:10 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
But by the time they ordered any GP9's, they made the switch to short hood forward. Sheldon

Carefull! B&O had GP9s that was long hood foward and a lot of B&Os short hood forward operation Geep7/9s was former C&O GP7/9s that kept their C&O looks and numbers.

Check the B&O  photos on fallenflags.org and RailPictures.net

Larry

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:19 PM

BRAKIE

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
But by the time they ordered any GP9's, they made the switch to short hood forward. Sheldon

 

Carefull! B&O had GP9s that was long hood foward and a lot of B&Os short hood forward operation Geep7/9s was former C&O GP7/9s that kept their C&O looks and numbers.

Check the B&O  photos on fallenflags.org and RailPictures.net

 

Yes, I remembered some B&O GP9's were long hood forward, and edited my post. 

All C&O GP7's and GP9's were short hood forward. I can't say what after merger paint schemes those locos might have had, I simply have no interest in that era. But from what I recall, all "Chessie" locos kept their original C&O, B&O or WM reporting marks.

Point remains, they changed from long to short forward pretty early on.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:37 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Point remains, they changed from long to short forward pretty early on. Sheldon

Actually  there was Chessie(B&O) GP9s that operated LHF as well as the B&O LHF Geeps that was never painted into the Chessie colors..

Once again the Chessie roads was not merged.The mergers came under CSX.

 

Larry

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 26, 2018 10:22 PM

BRAKIE

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Point remains, they changed from long to short forward pretty early on. Sheldon

 

Actually  there was Chessie(B&O) GP9s that operated LHF as well as the B&O LHF Geeps that was never painted into the Chessie colors..

Once again the Chessie roads was not merged.The mergers came under CSX.

 

 

Again, I know, but I don't keep any track of those details, that era of railroading is not of much interest to me.

Never in the history of the B&O did they ever manage to get every piece of equipment painted in the "current" paint scheme. In fact, in 1965 when the C&O "came on the property" and started repainting passenger cars in blue and yellow, there were still solid blue B&O passenger cars and Pullman Green B&O passenger cars, and locos in every scheme the B&O had used since the first diesel showed up.

And again, that is just legal sematics, C&O "owned" the whole thing no matter how many corporations it was structured into. Much of that was left "seperate" at first because of taxes, locomotive liens, right of way grants and other legal issues that needed to expire before it made legal sense to make it one company.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, April 26, 2018 11:59 PM

The TH&B's GP7s were all short hood forward...

...while their GP9s were all long hood forward (and stayed that way until CP Rail rebuilt them with low short hoods)...



The first TH&B diesel I saw was a GP7, and it seemed to me to be running backwards while pulling a train, since the short hood was on the front.  Up until that time, all I'd seen was steam, and if it was pulling a train, the long end (boiler) was always forward (unless it was a switcher).

Wayne

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Posted by OT Dean on Friday, April 27, 2018 12:40 AM

I have the feeling more of 'em were run short hood forward for the better visibility, Mike, but it did vary from road to road, as the others have said.  I do know the Norfolk and Western, once they reluctantly retired their steam fleet, opted for long hood forward, probably for the greater crew safety--and very likely because the cab crews liked the similarity to their beloved steam locos.  Have fun!

Deano

P.S. If you didn't know, the N&W probably would've stayed with steam for several more decades, as they mostly built 'em themselves.  However, the manufacturers of stream accessories moved away from them when the market dried up and building air compressors, feedwater heaters, etc., just wasn't practical.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 27, 2018 4:33 AM

OT Dean
I do know the Norfolk and Western, once they reluctantly retired their steam fleet, opted for long hood forward, probably for the greater crew safety--and very likely because the cab crews liked the similarity to their beloved steam locos.

Deano,If you study N&W and Southern photos on the two sites I mention you will see both N&W and Southern operated their Geeps in either direction.

GN appears to operated their Geeps in the  same manner.

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 27, 2018 4:43 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Again, I know, but I don't keep any track of those details, that era of railroading is not of much interest to me.

I have several C&O and B&O locomotive books as well as books on the Chessie,N&W,Southern,SCL and the PRR since these roads interest me..

Larry

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, April 27, 2018 5:11 AM

BRAKIE

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Again, I know, but I don't keep any track of those details, that era of railroading is not of much interest to me.

 

I have several C&O and B&O locomotive books as well as books on the Chessie,N&W,Southern,SCL and the PRR since these roads interest me..

 

I model the C&O, B&O ans WM - in 1954 long before Chessie, it is the Chessie era and beyond that does not interest me.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, April 27, 2018 6:52 AM

 The only ones the Reading ran short hood forward were Trainmasters, because they were just too big to see anything. But many of those actually had dual controls, so you could see them both ways, though short hood forward was preferred. Reading had no GP-9s, just GP-7s, and they ran long hood forward. RS3's and AS-16s also all ran long hood forward.

                                  --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by BigJim on Friday, April 27, 2018 7:41 AM

Bayfield Transfer Railway

Look to see which end of the frame the "F" is painted on.

That doesn't mean a thing if the unit has dual control stands.
It means more about how the unit is wired for MU operation as in the operation of headlights.

.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 27, 2018 8:32 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I model the C&O, B&O ans WM - in 1954 long before Chessie,

You model 17 years before Chessie and 7 years before C&O took control of the B&O and 14 years before B&O gain control of the WM.

So,you model closer then you think.

Larry

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, April 27, 2018 8:52 AM

BRAKIE

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I model the C&O, B&O ans WM - in 1954 long before Chessie,

 

You model 17 years before Chessie and 7 years before C&O took control of the B&O and 14 years before B&O gain control of the WM.

So,you model closer then you think.

 

In my opinion, that is a mistake many modelers make, allowing their modeling to be influenced by things they now know will happen, but that at the time where not a foregone conclusion.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, April 27, 2018 9:15 AM

 Even the real railroads are guilty of that. SPSF Kodachrome scheme, anyone?

                         --Randy


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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 27, 2018 9:22 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
In my opinion, that is a mistake many modelers make, allowing their modeling to be influenced by things they now know will happen, but that at the time where not a foregone conclusion. Sheldon

While I agree, one could not see change was in the air if railroads wished to survive the coming of the Trucking Industries Interstates..

Larry

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Posted by Storm75 on Friday, April 27, 2018 9:47 AM

Thank you all for the interesting discussion!

I visited the Fallen Flags site and saw enough photos of GN GP-7/9 running long-hood forward.  Good enough for me - I will adjust the CV and run it that way.

Thanks again!

Mike

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, April 27, 2018 11:27 AM

It was entirely up to the railroad. All GN road switchers with a high, short hood (GP-7/9, SD-7/9, RS-2/3 etc.) were set up long-nose forward. Their neighbor, Northern Pacific, ran most all their road switchers short-nose forward - even their RS-3s. Some railroads went model by model, buying RS-1s or RS-3s set up to run long-hood first, while buying GP-7s that were short-hood forward. As mentioned, there will be a small "F" at the front of the end the railroad designated as the front.

Model manufacturers generally wire up a diesel with whatever end they select to be the front, so the models usually come set up that way regardless of which body shell is on it. Decoder-equipped engines usually aren't adjusted for direction if a particular railroad ran the other way around.

Stix
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Posted by xboxtravis7992 on Friday, April 27, 2018 3:24 PM



Just because a locomotive is designed to run one way or another doesn't mean in practice that is how it will be used either. A few years back I saw a Union Pacific SD40N making the trip up a lightly used branchline (Cache Valley Subdivision) regularly longhood forward. It was a single unit, and the traffic was low enough for the week that they didn't have a need to travel further down the line were the only wye was. So they ran long hood forward up the mainline to the branch, longhood the next few days as they went up the branch; and when they finally dropped of their cars they just ran short hood forward on the way out and back to the main. Most weeks they work the branch they do have two engines back to back so they can run short hood forward both ways, but as you can see in the photo above if traffic was really light it was just one engine long hood leading. 

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Posted by Bubbytrains on Friday, April 27, 2018 3:53 PM

If I'm not mistaken, there was a similar odd arrangement regarding the Canadian Pacific's early MLW road switchers (their answer to Geeps). The RS-10 and RS-18. They look nearly identical (from a non-rivet counter perspective), but the earlier RS-10 was long-hood forward, and the replacement RS-18 was short-hood forward. It was not just the "F" that was noticeable, it was the paint scheme they applied to each model, because the gray was applied to whichever was the front end. It was especially noticeable when the two different models operated together as a pair, as they often did in Maine and New England. It looked at first like they were "elephant style", but were in fact back-to-back!

Bubbytrains

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, April 27, 2018 4:38 PM

I grew up along a stub-end branchline with a run-around track at the end, so every day (or twice a day) a train came by going north and later went by going south. The turntable at the end of the line had been removed when steam was eliminated from the line in the late 1940's. As with many railroads of the time, they had bought early diesels so they could work branchlines without needing to be turned, so the train normally had one diesel running forward going up and backwards going back - or vice versa.

Usual power was an FM H-10-44 or H-12-44, or Baldwin VO-1000 or DRS 6-6-1500. Even though they operated well in both directions, each had the long hood designated as the front.

 

Stix

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