Thought I saw something like this discussed here but I cant find it. On the cover there is what looks like a telephone pole just before the tunnel. There are strands of something hanging down.
What is it? When were they used?
Gary
Telltales. Tichy sells them if you don't want to make your own. According to their little blurb:
TELLTALES WERE USED TO WARN BRAKEMEN ANDOTHERS ON TOP OF CARS OF APPROACHING LOWCLEARANCE CONDITIONS. THEY CONSISTED OF A SETOF ROPES OR CHAINS HANGING FROM A CROSSBARPLACED SOME DISTANCE BEFORE THE HAZARD. THEERA IS 1900 TO 1965. HOWEVER SOME ARE STILLSTANDING TODAY.
part no 8164 $4.95
Walthers has them too
# 304-8707 $10
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
gdelmoro Thought I saw something like this discussed here but I cant find it. On the cover there is what looks like a telephone pole just before the tunnel. There are strands of something hanging down. What is it? When were they used?
Well that one looks a little tall, and very close to the tunnel, they are called "tell tails" and they are there to warn train crew members on the roof of cars about bridges and tunnels that would knock them off the roof walk. They were common when/where crew still walked the length of moving trains.
Sheldon
Well, I haven't seen the photo, but from your description of it, it sounds as if it's a telltale. Back in the days when brakemen had to use the roofwalks on cars to manually set or release the brakes on freight cars, telltales were generally mounted on a post and bracket so that they were suspended at a set height. From that bracket hung ropes, usually tarred, I think, to keep them from deflecting too much from wind. These were placed to warn men on the car tops that the train was approaching an overhead obstacle, and they best seek a better place to be. If the person wasn't otherwise aware of the approaching danger, the warning was physical contact with the ropes.
Here's a couple of scratchbuilt versions on my layout...
...although the one on the right looks as if it needs to be repaired.
Wayne
I also recall seeing telltales on industrial sidings where the customer had a loading dock with a roof or awning that would hit a man on the roof of the car, or the car could be shoved into the building through a large door. But those telltales were further away from the obstacle than is the one on the MR cover - and of course the speeds on the sidings would be much slower as well.
I never had a chance to examine one closely - but they appeared to be pretty darn substantial and likely would knock the man down, not just "warn" him.
On the C&NW they were known as "Whip Guards" and their 1933 standards (reprinted by the C&NW Historical Society in Vol. 1 on their Standards Book) says "guards to be placed 300 feet from structure to be guarded." The siding in my home town had it closer, perhaps 50 or 60 feet - again speeds would have been slow.
The standard also makes mention of state laws that specified the placement of Whip Guards (telltales). I was not aware of that. The whips themselves were "No. 9 galvanized iron wire." Ouch! The end of the wire was to be "not less than 6" below the lowest projecting point of the structure to be guarded." It further states that in the absence of state law dictating otherwise, Whip Guards would be placed "where vertical clearance of any bridge or tunnel is less than standard clearances for bridges."
This might be more than anyone wants to know about telltales/Whip Guards but I found it interesting and learned something.
Dave Nelson
I have heard some tell-tales used chains as the warning device.
.
The whole thing sounds very dangerous to me, but I guess it would be better than getting knocked in between two freight cars by a tunnel portal!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
doctorwayneBack in the days when brakemen had to use the roofwalks on cars to manually set or release the brakes on freight cars, telltales were generally mounted on a post and bracket so that they were suspended at a set height.
Wayne,We also rode top of the cars to pass hand signals and on PRR's Panhandle this lasted until 68/69.
I've been smack by those tell tales and knew low clearance was ahead..We would stoop to one knee to clear the low clearance. A lot of the old brakeman would get on the end ladder of the car but,I never took that risk because one sudden jerk and you could fall between the cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
SeeYou190The whole thing sounds very dangerous to me, but I guess it would be better than getting knocked in between two freight cars by a tunnel portal! . -Kevin
Kevin,You never ever stood near the end of the car..You followed the safety rule of staying at least 20' from the end of the car in a braced position.
Why would they be standing on the car in the first place? Seams a high risk. One post says they “stood in a braced position”.
So from what I’m reading these brakeman must have been daredevils!
running from car to car to turn brake wheels !!
https://www.american-rails.com/tell-tales.html#
How long did it take to stop a freight train?
Stopping whole trains that way was only done in the early days before air brakes, but it was still done for various switching moves into the 60's.
That's why cars had ladders and roof walks. Notice that modern cars do not have them..........
But modern trains have radios, gps, fred and no caboose, so there is no reason to walk roof tops totay.
Also, it was a way to walk the train length if the trackside terrain was rough...
gdelmoro Why would they be standing on the car in the first place? Seams a high risk. One post says they “stood in a braced position”.
Gary,There was several reasons including passing hand signals to the engineer while working a long cut of cars or around a curve where the engineer or fireman could not see the switchman's signals.
When I hired on the PRR braking was not for the faint of heart it because of the need to enter the red zone to connect the air line there was no three step.
Every time you had to set or release the car or cars hand brakes you had to climb the ladder,step around to the end ladder,hold the grab with your left hand,one foot on the ladder and one foot on the brake wheel platform and tighten or release the brake wheel.You was required to ride the roof walk if required to pass hand signals. You learned to swing on and off moving equipment.
IMHO there is nothing as frightening as being in between connecting the air hose and hearing the slack run in or out..
Of course you stood in a position where you could clear the cars as they begin to move.
BRAKIE gdelmoro Why would they be standing on the car in the first place? Seams a high risk. One post says they “stood in a braced position”. Gary,There was several reasons including passing hand signals to the engineer while working a long cut of cars or around a curve where the engineer or fireman could not see the switchman's signals. When I hired on the PRR braking was not for the faint of heart it because of the need to enter the red zone to connect the air line there was no three step. Every time you had to set or release the car or cars hand brakes you had to climb the ladder,step around to the end ladder,hold the grab with your left hand,one foot on the ladder and one foot on the brake wheel platform and tighten or release the brake wheel.You was required to ride the roof walk if required to pass hand signals. You learned to swing on and off moving equipment. IMHO there is nothing as frightening as being in between connecting the air hose and hearing the slack run in or out.. Of course you stood in a position where you could clear the cars as they begin to move.
Well, I‘m glad you’re alive to share that.
I was a Firefighter and Paramedic, we always had safety harnesses and lines. I’ll run into a burning building but I’m pretty sure I would not do your job.
I would like to learn more about the brakeman.
Gary,As long as you kept your wits about you there was little danger but,get careless and take risk you will pay the price because railroads doesn't suffer fools or carelesness.
Maybe this will help explain things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rx57jVGfso
Speaking of the hazards of being a brakeman, before I was born my dad worked for a short time as a brakeman in the Pacific Northwest. I remember him telling me stories about doing that job in the winter, when the whole train was slick with a coating of ice. Really dangerous stuff.
Ray DunakinReally dangerous stuff.
Only 43 deaths (so far) this year! Big improvement over 1929!
Dangerous indeed!
NYC_deaths_1930 by Edmund, on Flickr
As you can see Road and Yard Brakemen topped their respective categories. This is only a six-month period, on only ONE railroad.
Regards, Ed
Ed,Between 1880-1910 families of switchmen would keep a new sheet for when that dreaded knock on the door came.
The switchman's family would receive $25.00 and a Bible from the Brotherhood.
Brakie Back then, were switchmen basicly brakemen that worked the yards?
BigDaddy Brakie Back then, were switchmen basicly brakemen that worked the yards?
Henry,That would be correct..
gdelmoroI was a Firefighter and Paramedic, we always had safety harnesses and lines.
In places that unload covered hoppers and tank cars in modern times you often see supports and cable lines running parallel to the tracks that presumably the workers attach their safety harness to when working on the tops of those cars.
dknelson gdelmoro I was a Firefighter and Paramedic, we always had safety harnesses and lines. In places that unload covered hoppers and tank cars in modern times you often see supports and cable lines running parallel to the tracks that presumably the workers attach their safety harness to when working on the tops of those cars. Dave Nelson
gdelmoro I was a Firefighter and Paramedic, we always had safety harnesses and lines.
This sure to be an unpopular view, but after nearly 40 years in various construction related trades, much of the safety equipment required today makes jobs harder, and by extension more dangerous.
For example, working in a bucket truck - wearing a harness when you are already up to your waste in a fiberglass bucket is ridculous. If you are stupid enough to climb out of the bucket, you were too stupid to be doing that job.
But what do I know, I have spent years on ladders, scaffolds, bucket lifts, etc.
dknelsonIn places that unload covered hoppers and tank cars in modern times you often see supports and cable lines running parallel to the tracks that presumably the workers attach their safety harness to when working on the tops of those cars. Dave Nelson
Dave, That would make a interesting industry detail on modern layouts.
Sheldon,Maybe another detail on modern layouts would be to have a worker dangling in mid air from a bucket lift.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThis sure to be an unpopular view, but after nearly 40 years in various construction related trades, much of the safety equipment required today makes jobs harder, and by extension more dangerous. ...............But what do I know, I have spent years on ladders, scaffolds, bucket lifts, etc.
...............But what do I know, I have spent years on ladders, scaffolds, bucket lifts, etc.
I have to rat Sheldon out.
That's funny....
He is a real picture from one of our job sites:
We walked around the sloped bottom "shelf" of that turret roof the whole time we worked on it.
Here is the finished product:
We restored this whole house, inside and out, 15 months. Slate roofers on the main roof for 6 weeks, zero injuries on the job.
Life in modern times can be complicated. So can safety. What people in the past did strikes some as almost unfathomly dangerous, yet was part of the job one was expected to do if one wanted to keep the job. With time, laws and regulations came about because of the price in blood paid by workers. I've had friends killed and nearly killed on the RR, largey due to not following rules meant to protect them.
The best rule to be safe is to be aware of the hazards. Laws, regulations, and rules all help do that. Safety is both an individual and a collective experence. We are all personally responsible for it while enjoying the collective benefits it provides.
One could assume that only the trained and fully qualified would get in the way of danger. But that's just not so. You have to start somewhere if you're new and even if you have class and book training, getting it all out in the wind can be a shocking experience.
It not just the new guy or gal who has accidents. Inattention, fatigue, human error, bad judgment, etc all contribute. No single thing can make us safe, but it's also the case that no single thing caused an accident.
The fall protection at rail loading facilities several mentioned aready may not even be a strictly RR thing. It came about in the same era where fall protection became far more widespread in all industries. In part, this was do to greater awareness of the need to prevent falls, but more universally, it was due to new OSHA regs on fall protection.
There were reasons for that. A good example is a fellow worker. Managed to get lightly hurt at work, so was on termporary light duty. Someone thought it would be a good thing for him to paint up near the (30' warehouse) ceiling, even though he'd never operated a manlift before. Then they found him after he apparently leaned a lttle to far out painting something, and fell out. He died soon after from his injuries. It was at Fortune 500 company with trained safety people on site. In fact, they were running this light duty program for reasons we don't need to go into other than to say that there was obviously a conflict of interests that led to someone's death.
Incidents like that led to far more attention being paid to the safety of anyone who goes up in the air to work by OSHA in the late 80s and early 90s and this happened across many industries, including RRs even though they are primarily regulated by industry-specific agencies.
Yes, when everyone is having a good day, regulations seem largerly unnecessary or even counterproductive. It's really difficult to go an entire lfetime without having a bad day, though, and that's where regulations often save people's lives. Railroads tend to be regulated organizations, whether due to governmental, industry, union, or corporate initiatives - or all of the above.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanne could assume that only the trained and fully qualified would get in the way of danger. But that's just not so. You have to start somewhere if you're new and even if you have class and book training, getting it all out in the wind can be a shocking experience.
Mike,All it takes on the railroad is one foolish mistake caused by fatigue or inattentive thinking and one can lose limbs or their life.
A brakeman I worked with several times was killed one day when he gave a backup signal to the engineer and then proceed to cross the tracks in front of the moving cars. I gave a emergency stop signal to the engineer but,it was too late. I'll never forget his scream.
Mike, I'm not suggesting we don't need rules or safety equipment, but having worked in a number of construction and manufacturing settings for most of my life, both in the field and in management, I have to wonder if some of the people developing some of these polices have ever actually done any of this work? Or any kind of construction or heavy equipment work?
I skipped all those fortune 500 jobs in favor of charting my own course. Self employed most of my life, only worked for one fortune 500 company once - for 4 days - told them no thanks. Three years later started my first business.
I will leave my comments at that.
Throwing my worth, the bucket lifts I worked in weren't fiberglass containers, they had a toe kick on the bottom, a railing about knee hight, and a top rail about navel height, and a sudden move with the controls could bounce you around pretty good, along with moving the lift over irregular ground.
I can understand the rule about tieing off in a lift, even though it was a huge PITA, especially with 2 guys in the bucket.
And carpenters that "hung" on the form work, waiting to attach the next gang form that a crane was swinging in place, depended on their tie off, along with the iron workers ahead of them tieing rebar.
Mike.
My You Tube
BTW, re brakemen riding on cars, that was also needed in the early days of hump yards. K-Line decades ago republished a book on railroading from about 1940 that had a pic of several freight cars rolling in a humpyard, each with a brakeman riding it to operate the handbrakes.
Gary, if you want to see some telltales, take a ride down the Parkway, and when you get to the bridge at MP 111, look to the right. they're over the tracks down below.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27