wojosa31Back in the first half of the 1960s, the C&O/B&O did some novel experimentation.
Not to forget, Auto-trans® "Take your car with you" in the 1970s and Movies on board beginning around 1965.
B&Optt_466 by Edmund, on Flickr
Thank You, Ed
The Jet ClipperThe Jet Clipper wrote the following post 22 days ago: So, I've been watching through the GreenFrog Videos featuring the C&O/B&O trains of the 60's, and for most of the trains, they have at least 1 PRR (or any other road's) sleeper. Why is that?
Back in the first half of the 1960s, the C&O/B&O did some novel experimentation. For instance for at least one six month period, a PRR Creek Series 12 Duplex Room, 4 Double Bedroom Car ran in the Consist of the Capitol Limited, in place of a B&O 10 roomette, 6 double bedroom. Additional 14 roomette, 4 double bedroom sleepers were leased from the New Haven and Frisco, to replace 16 duplex roomette-4 double bedroom (Bird Series) Budd Sleepers being re-purposed as Slumbercoaches. And 5 Double Bedroom Mid train lounges were leased from the MP to replace the 1-2-1 Observations on the National Limited. B&O also regularly leased UP lightweight 14 section sleepers for the Capitol Limited, and ATSF 24 Duplex Roomette sleepers for the Ambassador (DC-Detroit). The C&O Resort Special, routinely used a PRR Sleeper Lounge from NY to White Sulpher Springs.
Meanwhile, the last of the B&O Rebuilt HW Streamlined Sleepers roamed the country in Pullman Pool service. This as late as 1966?
Boris
And with C&O sleepers, it goes the other way, too.There are a few photos out in circulation of C&O sleepers on other lines. For example, I've seen at least two shots of C&O sleepers on CB&Q Zephyrs.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Another aspect of foreign line passenger equipment is head end (express, mail storage, baggage, and to a lesser extent, RPO) cars. Express and mail storage cars enjoyed a freedom almost equal to that of freight cars. I have seen Missouri Pacific, Southern Pacific, and Great Northern cars at South Station in Boston along with Seaboard, Southern, and Atlantic Coast Line equipment. By the same token, New Haven cars wound up in Florida, Chicago and on the west coast. Head end traffic traveled over established routes and if for instance, a Southern car was not available to cover the Boston to Atlanta route, a New Haven, Pennsy, SAL or ACL car would do just fine. Pennsy B-60 "baggage" cars and X-29 head end cars were common sights coast to coast prior to Amtrak. RPO cars were under contract with the post office department and had to meet the contracted requirements for the specific route they were to cover, but they did move in interline routings. Head ends and solid extra trains of mail and express could become very interesting, if not downright colorful around Christmas sesaon. Another way to spice up your passenger trains.
DSchmitt By agreement with the NYC and PRR The California Zephyr (D&RGW, CB&Q, WP) consist included a through sleeper alternating between the NYC and PRR for service between Chicago and NY City. The PRR owned one California Zephyr sleeper for use in New York - San Francilco through service. The car was built at the same time as the Zephyr cars and matched them. Sometimes due to circumstaces (like damage or breakdowns) a PRR sleeper would be substituted. Silver Rapids PRR owned sleeper. Note "PRR" on upper left of car.
By agreement with the NYC and PRR The California Zephyr (D&RGW, CB&Q, WP) consist included a through sleeper alternating between the NYC and PRR for service between Chicago and NY City.
The PRR owned one California Zephyr sleeper for use in New York - San Francilco through service. The car was built at the same time as the Zephyr cars and matched them. Sometimes due to circumstaces (like damage or breakdowns) a PRR sleeper would be substituted.
Silver Rapids PRR owned sleeper. Note "PRR" on upper left of car.
That California Zephyr car in PRR reporting marks is pretty cool, that isn't something I had seen before!
Anyways, as for other connecting/through train service; one example from my region that comes to mind is Union Pacific's National Parks specials to Cedar City, Utah. They carried a lot of sleepers from the eastern roads loaded with tourists heading to the parks, so there were many times were PRR and NYC or other eastern road cars ended up in southern Utah via the UP National Parks Specials.
C&O, right up through the 1960's, provided connecting sleeper service on all named trains to both the Greenbrier at White Sulphur Springs, WV, and the Homestaed at Hot Springs, VA. Both of these resorts were popular destinations for both vacation, and business travellers, and foreign road sleepers would show up if traffic demanded. The service was from both east and west with connections at Washington D.C., and Cincinnati. It was not uncommon to see nearly complete trains of foreign road sleepers arrive at the Greenbrier carrying passengers there for conventions and other special events. In fact, when General Motors held a convention at the Greenbrier in May of 1969, sleepers from roads as far afoot as Illinois Central, Santa Fe, and Union Pacific showed up in the several special trains needed to haul them. GM's 1972 annual meeting was also at the Greenbrier, and foreign road sleepers and even foreign road locomotives were used on the trains that year.
In 1972 I rode a Southern sleeper on Amtrak's James Whitcomb Riley from Washington DC to Chicago, even though Southern had not joined Amtrak. There were scheduled through services, but cars were also loaned in extraordinary circumstances.
Tom
The June 1965 Official Guide of the Railways shows the George Washington carrying five air conditioned sleepers westbound: Washington-Cincinnati, a 10-6, Washington-Louisville, another 10-6, Newport News-Chicago, 10-6, Charlottesville-Chicago, a 4-4-2, and Charlottesville-Detroit, a 10-6. From Cincinnati, connections to Chicago were handled by the NYC and to St. Louis by the B&O. Eastbound, things change. The Cincinnati-Washington 10-6 returns on the George. The Louisville-Washington 10-6 also returns and continues on to New York over the PRR, just like it originated. The Charlottesville-Chicago 10-6 returns eastward on The Sportsman, along with the Newport News-Chicago 10-6. George now has a Ashland KY-Newport News 10-6, a Hot Springs WV-New York 11 double bedroom car and White Sulphur Springs-New York 11 dbr car that went west on the Sportsman. With connections to New York over the Pennsy, Chicago over the NYC and, St. Louis over the B&O swapping east and westbound cars with the Sportsman, foreign sleepers were bound to show up, especially since, C&O owned 10-6 and 11dbr cars but no 4-4-2s which PRR did have. Canadian National sleepers regularly ran between Montreal and Washington, DC over a CN-CV-B&M-NH-PRR route so, a PRR car on a C&O train is no big deal. I would opt for modeling the George and possibly the Sportsman as well since they swapped equipment east and westbound. C&O equipment was common in Sunnyside Yard in New York City.
The Jet ClipperAlso, I think C&O is overtaking the Santa Fe for me as my favorite railroad... Maybe I'll model the George Washington after all? A
Remember...............George Washington was a "Chief" too!
oldline1
Back when Pullman operated the cars there was a large inventory of "Pool" cars. Many of the heavyweights were painted two-tone gray like New York Central's 1948 scheme but these were owned by Pullman and they could be run on any "line" (Pullman routes were called lines).
So after 1947 when the effects of the antitrust settlement came about many of the Pullman owned cars were sold to the operating railroads and the "pool" evaporated. So if a particular demand came about the passenger operations managers could call around to find what cars were available for a particular high demand.
Also, cars were chartered by groups for events such as the famed Army-Navy game, the Kentucky Derby, any of the New York auto shows, Shriner's Conventions and the like.
I just came across photos of PRR sleepers being used as "hotel" space for travelers on a special being run by a Cleveland newspaper on the Erie to Hoboken. Hotel space was short in NYC so the Erie arranged for the sleepers to be used instead.
Many Presidential inaugurations called for special sleeping car arrangements like this, too. Several photos are kicking around of the PRR team tracks just south of the Capitol chocked full of Pullmans for use by the attendees of the ceremony.
The B&O ran two special trains in November of 1972 from Chicago to Detroit to White Sulpher Springs for GM's annual meeting. These trains had Pullman sleepers from all over, UP, SP, CZ, some B&O/C&O several CN and they had GN steam generator cars since they were powered by new GP-40-2s 4165, 4166 and 4175-4177. One of the trains had 2 E-8Bs at the tail end for steam.
Pullman ran a repair shop in Buffalo (there were, IIRC, four Pullman shops still operating in the 1960s) so you might see some deadhead foreign cars being carried to or from shops, too.
Here's a B&O train (Running on the C&O) with a New Haven baggage car, two of the HW Pullman pool cars AND another Pennsy sleeper. (go to 2:00)
During heavy winter traffic to Florida there were often times of pooled or shared equipment with other roads. If I recall, some of the North Coast Limited dome cars were used half the year on the Panama Limited, going so far as to repaint the cars twice each year!
These are some of the reasons off the top of my head, there's lots more. I'm sure others will have good input, too.
Of course, today, you might see Private Varnish carried on any of the Amtrak routes, which is a carryover from the days I mention above.
Good Luck, Ed
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Since B&O gave up on passenger service north of Baltimore, if they sold a through ticket from Saint Louis to NYC, the connection likely went via PRR. Sell enough sleeper seats to NYC, add a PRR car to the train.
Look at the old trains from Chicago to LA that ran on three railroads to get there. You'd see all three "brands" on the train.
rrinker Connecting service?
Connecting service?
That's what I thought, too. But, some of the cars are the really unique ones, which adds to my confusion.
In the video, at the 3:08 mark, it shows an eastbound train with a "Creek" series sleeper. I would understand like maybe a 4-4-2 or a 10-6 (standard sleepers that are trasnfered) but why a 12-5?
Connecting service? The Interstate Express ran a sleeper until 1955 when the whole service discontinured, starting in Philadelphia on the Reading, to the CNJ and then DL&W to Syracuse. Earlier they had coaches as well as sleepers, but by the end there was ONLY sleeper service between Wilkes Barre and Binghampton.
If anything remained of through service, it would have been the extra fair Pullmans. Not going to make people wake up at some god-awful hour to switch trains, the sleepers would be switched from train to train while people slumbered on, unaware of the activity (unless the switch crew was heavy handed, which likely meant that was the LAST time they switched passenger trains for a while).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
So, I've been watching through the GreenFrog Videos featuring the C&O/B&O trains of the 60's, and for most of the trains, they have at least 1 PRR (or any other road's) sleeper.
Why is that?
I thought by the 1960's, most transcon lines ended. I know that C&O trains carried B&O cars and vise versa because they operated as one large railroad, but why the other RR's cars? I want to know before I go ahead with my plans (I'll bring these up at a later date).
Also, I think C&O is overtaking the Santa Fe for me as my favorite railroad... Maybe I'll model the George Washington after all?