Anybody know if there was a standard length for these? I'm modeling the 1920s in HO and have made one about a scale 12 ft. which I found on a drawing referencing "U.P.H.S." (Union Pacific Historical Society?). Since making it, however, I've seen references to poles about 8 ft. long.
I would speculate that each railroad used a size that suited them based on track spacing.
I can't find anything other than the 12' mentioned. I would be very surprised if they were much shorter than that. They have to bind into the dimples in such a way that their angle imparts momentum between the two shover and the car being moved on a track at least 8' away. If the angle is too wide, it wouldn't work.
That is something you dont see modeled or done in operations. A little bit of woodland scenics tacky stuff. Or the really small magnets used on those detail airhoses would work. Grantit you would have to some work to the car. The pole could just have them stuck to the end. Or be ferrous metal.
wolfie
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
I just happened to have my copy of george Hilton's book, "The Ma & Pa" nearby and checked; they hung push-poles 8'0" long under the right sides of the tenders of their 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s, and 2-8-0s. They also carried a rerailing frog under each side of the tender, in case they needed to put a car truck back on the rails.
There's a video clip of a NYC Ten-Wheeler in the "Classic Steam of the 20's, 30's, and 40's" poling a car along a siding, getting it going fast enough, and switching it onto the main from a stub siding. This was pretty much outlawed later on in the Steam Era. A Soo Line crew somehow managed to mangle the side of a step on a Diesel switcher, one night, when they illegally used a pole of some sort to move a car when they'd fouled a switch---er, turnout. (They tried to repair the damage, later that night, in the roundhouse at Waukesha, WI, but were hauled over the carpet anyway.)
If your railroad is of an early-to-mid 20th Century vintage, suit yourself, but remember, the pole has to be slender enough to be held in place by a crewman or two. The ones I used under my tender side sills were 8' long by 9" diameter in the middle, tapering on each end to fit inside iron/steel collars to prevent splitting, a la Ma & Pa.
Deano
Forgive my ignorence but what is a push pole?
Joe Staten Island West
joe323Forgive my ignorence but what is a push pole?
It's only 20 seconds long.
Mike.
My You Tube
Deano, thanks very much for providing us with that information. I have learned something...that some roads actually used 8' push poles.
Watching that video, there is so much that could go terribly wrong there, no wonder it was banned.
I have a BS 4-4-0 that has chains strung along the bottom of the tender. No one has been able to tell me what they were for. Maybe to store the poles?
You can sort of see the chains in the pic.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I've seen several videos showing steam locomotives with chains draped along the bottom of the tender. Even some N& W Y-class engines. Have no idea why they are there... I would guess to "pull something"...?
Mike C.
Those poles look like a helluva good way to get hurt! You reckon this was before OSHA came along?
I've read a few different articles over time, and from what I have learned, the chains are there to keep the trucks attached to the tender during a derailment, and to keep the trucks somewhat in line with the tender,( or car, as some pasenger equipment had these also), for a better chance of the car staying upright, and "following along".
Not all roads used these, and, in my various readings, there was never a mention that the chains were a "requirement".
mbinsewi I've read a few different articles over time, and from what I have learned, the chains are there to keep the trucks attached to the tender during a derailment, and to keep the trucks somewhat in line with the tender,( or car, as some pasenger equipment had these also), for a better chance of the car staying upright, and "following along". Not all roads used these, and, in my various readings, there was never a mention that the chains were a "requirement". Mike.
While not the answer to the OP's question, I found this Image1 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr
There were also chains connecting the trucks to the tender frame since the trucks, although the chains on the model to not appear to represent them either.
"Contrary to popular opinion, railroad cars, including steam locomotive tenders, just sit on their trucks. The trucks are not mechanically "connected" to the car. If you were to lift the car body of a steam locomotive tender with a crane, the trucks would stay on the rails. Of course, you would tear up the brake rigging and a few other things in the process, but the trucks would not lift with the car body.
Those chains keep the trucks close to the tender in the event of a serious derailment involving an upset or rollover, and they prevent the truck from slewing too far If they come off the rails in a minor derailment.
Rich Melvin, CEO"
O Gauge Railroading magazine
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
BATMANBATMAN wrote the following post 7 hours ago: Watching that video, there is so much that could go terribly wrong there, no wonder it was banned. I have a BS 4-4-0 that has chains strung along the bottom of the tender. No one has been able to tell me what they were for. Maybe to store the poles? You can sort of see the chains in the pic.
The chains you are referring to don't appear to be safety chains but rather what we used to call "car chains". They could be used to chain up a car with a defective or missing coupler. They could sometimes be used to pull a car out of the way if it didn't roll into the clear when trying to swing the car by the engine (sometimes called a flying switch). Another use could be to pull a car around a curve that was too tight to go around coupled to the engine.
Most of the local freight jobs I was familiar with carried the chains on the caboose.
Attuvian...I do not recall ever seeing truck frame to body frame chains on any tender [edit] photos - and now await proof that I am out to lunch on the issue.
Here's some, John, factory installed, on a Proto USRA 0-8-0...
Mine is the early version, with no tender pick-ups. The chains are among the few original details still left on the model.
This car...
...was the prototype for this model...
The real one started life in the late '20s as just another X-29, one of almost 30,000 similar cars. In 1934, it was pulled from service and rebuilt into an express car. In addition to the sill steps and grabirons used in such service, it also got steam and signal lines, a quick-service schedule passenger-type brake system, and high speed trucks, with locking centre pins. In a major derailment, nobody wants to see the trucks separated from a car and careening through a coach full of passengers. I'd guess this to be the more "modern" equivalent of the safety chains. Those truck are still on the car shown.
Wayne
Appreciate all the comments....
Sounds like my pole model is in the ballpark regarding length. True, it's 4 ft. longer than the ones on the Ma & Pa, but at 4 1/2 in. diam. in the center, it's half the diam. of Ma & Pa's 9 in. diam. So with less girth it might be roughly the same weight; a couple of guys could probably handle it. The NYC pole in the movie clip looks to be about the same length and diam. as Ma & Pa's. An account of an accident in New Jersey in 1920 possibly caused by a pole is at https://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B05E0D6133EE13ABC4E51DFB066838B639EDE
Re the tender chains subject, the ones I've seen at the Strasburg, PA RR and other places are fastened between the truck frame corner and the tender horizontal frame member and have only a slight amount of slack to limit how far the trucks could twist in a derailment.
doctorwayne Attuvian ...I do not recall ever seeing truck frame to body frame chains on any tender [edit] photos - and now await proof that I am out to lunch on the issue. Here's some, John, factory installed, on a Proto USRA 0-8-0... Mine is the early version, with no tender pick-ups. The chains are among the few original details still left on the model. This car... ...was the prototype for this model... The real one started life in the late '20s as just another X-29, one of almost 30,000 similar cars. In 1934, it was pulled from service and rebuilt into an express car. In addition to the sill steps and grabirons used in such service, it also got steam and signal lines, a quick-service schedule passenger-type brake system, and high speed trucks, with locking centre pins. In a major derailment, nobody wants to see the trucks separated from a car and careening through a coach full of passengers. I'd guess this to be the more "modern" equivalent of the safety chains. Those truck are still on the car shown. Wayne
...I do not recall ever seeing truck frame to body frame chains on any tender [edit] photos - and now await proof that I am out to lunch on the issue.