Randy Stahl BAR - Bangor and Aroostook had a massive fleet of both ice reefers and mechanical reefers. From time to time they leased them to PFE or to other railroads. The BAR owned the cars outright. The reefer fleet disappeared in the 70s. The Bangor and Aroostook referred to itself as the B&A but that mark was already taken so they made BAR the reporting mark.
BAR - Bangor and Aroostook had a massive fleet of both ice reefers and mechanical reefers. From time to time they leased them to PFE or to other railroads. The BAR owned the cars outright. The reefer fleet disappeared in the 70s.
The Bangor and Aroostook referred to itself as the B&A but that mark was already taken so they made BAR the reporting mark.
The Official Railway Equipment Register often warns the user to not confuse one railroad's equipment for that of another with a similar (but not exactly the same) name or mark.
Jeff
dknelsonSaint Louis Union Terminal
.
I like humorous ficticious railroads, but making semi-obscenities out of the reporting marks is not my style.
I have a tank car lettered for the NORTHERN UNION TERMINAL (NUT), and that is funny enough for me.
Back in the 50s and 60s there werre some great model railroad names out there. I am fortunate to have been able to collect some of their original decals.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Some years back there was a guy making the rounds of train shows offering custom painted freight cars for the imaginary Saint Louis Union Terminal. They were rather popular among collectors.
Dave Nelson
cuyama 7j43k If your railroad is Great Sunset Route, it has to start with G. Nowadays. Clearly not true for the transition era -- and maybe not ever. Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad: reporting mark MILW. There are other examples in the ORER.
7j43k If your railroad is Great Sunset Route, it has to start with G. Nowadays.
Clearly not true for the transition era -- and maybe not ever. Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad: reporting mark MILW. There are other examples in the ORER.
NWP SWPSo many opinions! I could do GSRR or GSR
I would go with GSR. Not many railroads use "RR" for Railroad.
I am stuck with SGRR for the STRATTON AND GILLETTE, but would prefer "S&GR", "SGR", or "STGR".
Oh well, after 35 years it is not changing.
7j43k cuyama 7j43k If your railroad is Great Sunset Route, it has to start with G. Nowadays. Clearly not true for the transition era -- and maybe not ever. Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad: reporting mark MILW. There are other examples in the ORER. A good point. I checked a 2015 one (my latest) just to see if it's true currently: MILW is a reporting mark for Soo Line ABOX is a reporting mark for TTX No real need to go on. Ed
A good point. I checked a 2015 one (my latest) just to see if it's true currently:
MILW is a reporting mark for Soo Line
ABOX is a reporting mark for TTX
No real need to go on.
Ed
Whether the Wikipedia is accurate, I don't know. But it does say "current practice". I take that to mean if you apply for a new reporting mark today, the intials assigned would likely reflect the company applying for it in some manner.
Soo Line "inherited" MILW when they acquired it in the 1980s. The ABOX, and there were/are other similiar intials, go back to the old RailBox name for that pool of box cars. (The newest TBOX cars still have the old slogan, "Next Load/Any Road" that Railbox used.) I think TrailerTrain always was involved in Railbox, and other equipment pools, but in recent years dropped the Railbox name.
Standard Carrier Alpha Codes are issued by the NMFTA.
http://www.nmfta.org/pages/scac?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
"The National Motor Freight Traffic Association, Inc., (NMFTA) assigns SCACs for all companies except those codes used for identification of freight containers not operating exclusively in North America, intermodal chassis and trailers, non-railroad owned rail cars, and railroads."
Railroad SCACs are a type of reporting mark, but are not necessarily the reporting mark for the railroad.
https://www.railinc.com/rportal/documents/18/260641/MARK_Glossary.pdf
"MARK - A two to four alpha character combination (left justified) representing a transportation company. A MARK may be a SCAC equaling the CARRIER or may be an equipment identifier transferred to the CARRIER upon acquisition of a former railroad’s equipment"
"CARRIER - A two to four alpha character field (left justified) representing a Standard Carrier Alpha Code (SCAC) assigned to a transportation company."
So many opinions! I could do GSRR or GSR, Great Sunset Route/Railroad
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
7j43kIf your railroad is Great Sunset Route, it has to start with G. Nowadays.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
NWP SWP Well then my line is the Great Sunset Route so would rep marks SNST work?
Well then my line is the Great Sunset Route so would rep marks SNST work?
According to this article, no:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporting_mark
If your railroad is Great Sunset Route, it has to start with G. Nowadays. Whether that was always one of those official rules would take some research. But the basic tradition for reporting marks is the first letter of each word of the railroad. So ya still end up with G.
I'll say that "Great Sunset Route" looks more like a slogan than a railroad name. But, hey, what's a "CSX", anyway? So if Mr. Bigbucks, the owner, wants it, I suppose.....
I'll mention that the article is not heavily into the history part. But it looks like good reading for a start.
Wow, there's a title for a best-seller: "Reporting Marks, and their History Through the Ages". I know I'm in for a copy.
wjstix - The rest, say 80%, would be owned by refrigerator car leasing companies, who would lease cars to private companies, and / or to railroads. These cars would have an "X" on the end of their reporting marks, as the cars were not railroad-owned.
- The rest, say 80%, would be owned by refrigerator car leasing companies, who would lease cars to private companies, and / or to railroads. These cars would have an "X" on the end of their reporting marks, as the cars were not railroad-owned.
I think you are likely referring to the FGEX WFEX PFE etc. buncha companies. I have my doubts that they did much leasing out. I believe they operated the cars themselves. What are the companies that leased them? They would have been sizeable and thus prominent. And thus knowable.
And WHY would they lease them? That would just be introducing a middle man to suck up some of the profits.
wjstix I don't have as good a guess on the numbers, but I suspect if you went back to say 1895, you'd have a majority of reefers beign railroad-owned cars, but with many being leased by the railroads to private businesses (as I noted, with both the railroad name and the private business' name on the car). That's what changed in the early 20th century due to regulation changes by the federal government. Railroads couldn't directly lease cars to private businesses, it had to go through a separate (at least on paper) entity.
I don't have as good a guess on the numbers, but I suspect if you went back to say 1895, you'd have a majority of reefers beign railroad-owned cars, but with many being leased by the railroads to private businesses (as I noted, with both the railroad name and the private business' name on the car). That's what changed in the early 20th century due to regulation changes by the federal government. Railroads couldn't directly lease cars to private businesses, it had to go through a separate (at least on paper) entity.
Stix,
According to a table in White's book, in 1895 railroads owned 7040 refrigerator cars. 21,000 cars were privately owned.
So, your suspicions appear to be in error.
Rather than urging me to "keep reading", perhaps you should dig out your copy and read it yourself. Sometimes one's recollection of a book is not accurate. I just re-read the entire first chapter, and I stand by my comments.
I don't see any comment in White that railroads "couldn't directly lease cars to private businesses". It may be true. I'd like to know the source.
NWP SWP So how did PRR have PENNSYLVANIA on their cars as rep marks? I am utterly confused!
So how did PRR have PENNSYLVANIA on their cars as rep marks?
I am utterly confused!
Probably because it's not really a reporting mark. But it does clearly identify the Railroad. Possible those dealing with the cars and paperworhk knew it was PRR.
Another thought, the PRR was a very large system, lots of home road business, perhaps they were cars not used in interchange.
Anybody know or find an article with an explanation?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Let's back up a minute...in re-reading some of the posts, I might have muddied the waters by not saying things clearly. Let's see if I can "drain the swamp" (to coin a phrase).
This is just an educated guess, but I believe if you looked at all refrigerator cars in service in the US in 1925, you'd see something like this:
- A small percentage, maybe 10% (probably less) were owned and maintained by private businesses, most likely large food or beverage companies. These cars would have reporting marks ending in "X" indicated the cars were not owned by a railroad.
- A similar number, maybe 10% (could be a bit more) were owned and maintained by a railroad. These would carry the railroad's normal reporting marks.
Another good book with lots of information - which actually now that I think of it might deal with the business side more than the 'Great Yellow Fleet', is "Billboard Refrigerator Cars":
https://www.amazon.com/Billboard-Refrigerator-Richard-Kaminski-Hendrickson/dp/1930013221
7j43k Stix, The topic is about reporting marks. You said, or implied, that refrigerator cars were not allowed to be run under a railroad's reporting marks. I cited two. You did not respond.
The topic is about reporting marks. You said, or implied, that refrigerator cars were not allowed to be run under a railroad's reporting marks. I cited two. You did not respond.
In my earlier reply I said "Railroads could still own reefers for general freight service, but (as I understand it) they couldn't lease cars to private companies like they had in the past." Obviously, these cars would have the railroad's reporting marks. I never said a railroad couldn't own reefers. But after the regulation(s) came into effect about 100 years ago, the majorty of reefers were not owned by railroads. Yes, I'm sure there were situations where it turned out to be beneficial to the railroads to separate the refrigerator line out, but my understanding is the main cause was anti-trust rulings / regulations.
7j43k I have just read the first chapter of "The Great Yellow Fleet", where he discusses early reefer ownership; and I see nothing that backs up your assertions.
I have just read the first chapter of "The Great Yellow Fleet", where he discusses early reefer ownership; and I see nothing that backs up your assertions.
I'd suggest you keep reading. I haven't read/re-read the book in a while, but as I recall Mr.White does an excellent job of explaining the changes in federal regulations in the early 20th century that caused the formation of the refrigerator car leasing companies affiliated with railroads (Great Northern / Western Fruit Express, Burlington Route / Burlington Refrigerator Express, etc.)
I will also throw in, from the July 1945 ORER:
B&M 13101-13216 Refrigerator, Steel Underframe, Friction Draft Gear
B&M 13231-13298 Same
Going to your general case of railroads not being allowed to own refrigerator cars, I would appreciate your citing your source for your statements. I have just read the first chapter of "The Great Yellow Fleet", where he discusses early reefer ownership; and I see nothing that backs up your assertions.
Mr. White says that early reefers were almost all privately owned, because the railroads didn't want them because they were too expensive to build and maintain. But they WERE willing to transport them. The companies owning them were the ones who ran into trouble with the government, and were required to make "concessions":
"While the number of private cars failed to diminish, their ownership was radically altered due to Federal intervention. The formation of Fruit Growers Express was but one instance. Railroads found it advantageous to maintain the semi-independent operating companies that remained, at least superficially, private car lines. It also permitted joint ownership, thus spreading the investment burden over several railroads."
It would appear, from what Mr. White writes, that railroads were NEVER told they could not own refrigerator cars. They just found it advantageous NOT to.
Of course, I could be misreading White.
7j43k wjstix Refrigerator car lines had to be incorporated separately from the railroads, so for example Burlington Refrigerator Express (BREX), although affiliated with the Burlington Route, was a separate private company...at least on paper...with separate reporting marks. Same for the Santa Fe and the Santa Fe Refrigerator Despatch (SFRD). I suspect "had to" is not correct--that it is more correctly "chose to". Based on circumstances. If there's a "had to", I'd surely like to know what it was.
wjstix Refrigerator car lines had to be incorporated separately from the railroads, so for example Burlington Refrigerator Express (BREX), although affiliated with the Burlington Route, was a separate private company...at least on paper...with separate reporting marks. Same for the Santa Fe and the Santa Fe Refrigerator Despatch (SFRD).
Refrigerator car lines had to be incorporated separately from the railroads, so for example Burlington Refrigerator Express (BREX), although affiliated with the Burlington Route, was a separate private company...at least on paper...with separate reporting marks. Same for the Santa Fe and the Santa Fe Refrigerator Despatch (SFRD).
I suspect "had to" is not correct--that it is more correctly "chose to". Based on circumstances. If there's a "had to", I'd surely like to know what it was.
Actually, "had to" is exactly correct. It goes back to federal regulations enacted during the Progressive / Theodore Roosevelt "trust busting" era of the early 1900's.
The history of refrigerator car companies, lease agreements, regulations re billboard lettering etc. gets complicated. There is a good book (see below) that covers it quite well.
100+ years ago, it wasn't uncommon for a railroad to lease cars to a private company. That's why you'll sometimes see pictures (or models) of 1890's cars with a railroad name on one side of the door, and a private company name on the other. The railroad didn't sell advertising space to the company (some folks think that's what "billboard reefer" means - it doesn't), they leased the car to that company for dedicated service.
I believe in general the issue was that if say packing company A leased reefer cars from XYZ railroad that served it's plant(s), packing company B (who was also served by XYZ railroad, but owned their own reefers or leased them from someone else) felt that XYZ railroad gave company A preferential treatment re service times, shipping rates, etc.
The federal government intervened, and required railroads to separate themselves from leasing of cars to companies. This generally was accomplished by the railroad setting up a separate refrigerator car company, either by itself or in conjunction with neighboring railroads. Railroads could still own reefers for general freight service, but (as I understand it) they couldn't lease cars to private companies like they had in the past. In some situations, a railroad would set up a reefer car company and transfer all it's reefers to that company, and then lease them back.
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Yellow-Fleet-American-Refrigerator/dp/0870950916
Suggested reporting marks for NWP SWP
NSWP
WPNS
NPSP
WNSP
arbe1948Not too rare: CRI&P - Rock Island CMStP&P - MilwaukeeRoad M&StL - Minneapolis and Saint louis DSS&A - Duluth South Shore and Atlantic MStP&SSteM - Soo Line CTH&E - Chicago Terre Haute and Eastern
The ones longer than four characters (not counting ampersand) weren't the reporting marks. For example:
CMStP&P - reporting mark MILW
MStP&SSteM - reporting mark SOO
Reporting marks are four characters or fewer. Plus maybe an ampersand.
Source: 1953 Official Railway Equipment Register
NWP SWPHow's PACIFIC as a rep mark?
Not legal. Four characters max (and maybe an ampersand). As people have been saying.
How's PACIFIC as a rep mark?
7j43kActually, it IS very difficult to find earlier examples that are longer. For me. I only found one: D&RGW.
"Actually, it IS very difficult to find earlier examples that are longer. For me. I only found one: D&RGW."
Not too rare:
CRI&P - Rock Island
CMStP&P - MilwaukeeRoad
M&StL - Minneapolis and Saint louis
DSS&A - Duluth South Shore and Atlantic
MStP&SSteM - Soo Line
CTH&E - Chicago Terre Haute and Eastern
...
As an exception to the statement, I'll note that there were 100's of express refrigerator cars with the reporting marks PRR on the side. And that GN had a fair number, also. These cars did NOT stay on home rails.
But, for the general case, it is true that railroads did not roster very many refrigerator cars under their own reporting marks.
Like I mentioned earlier, the requirement that railroads or private companies limit their reporting marks to 4 letters didn't happen until like 1960, maybe a little later, so it's not hard to find earlier examples that are longer.
Actually, it IS very difficult to find earlier examples that are longer. For me. I only found one: D&RGW.
As I noted earlier, in the November 1926 ORER, there are ZERO roads listed with more than four letters. EXCEPT for the narrow gage D&RGW. Which was not exactly an interchange road, at least not to a nationwide extent. Interestingly, there is a note that D&RG (the wide-gage part of the operation) was adding the "W" "as we speak".
From 1927 to approximately 1973, D&RGW was the only 5 letter reporting mark that I could find. Sometime in the following two years, the "4 letter rule" happened. But even in 1980, D&RGW was still listed as a reporting mark.
Keep in mind too it only affected cars used in interchange, a railroad could pretty much do what it wanted if a car was only used on-line. The DM&IR had that issue come up when all-rail ore trains became more common. Since their ore cars originally were rarely off the railroad, they didn't have the DMIR reporting marks on them, just the railroad herald with the car no. underneath it. That's why you came to see the Missabe ore cars with DM and IR stencilled over the herald, so those cars met the regulations when used in all-rail trains.
dehusmanA railroad can own and use multiple reporting marks.
The STRATTON AND GILLETTE uses the following:
SGRR (Stratton & Gillette Railroad)
SGRT (Stratton & Gillette Refrigerated Transport)
SGMF (Stratton & Gillette Motor Freight)
SGPF (Stratton & Gillette Prioritized Freight)