gregcconsidering the rules described for entering a siding, I have a difficult time imagining a model railroad that truly implements a prototypical signaling system or an operating session that accurately follows a rule book.
In ABS the rules for entering a siding are very simple. Stop. Line the switch. Enter the siding.
In ABS the rules for leaving a siding are very simple. When you have authority, open the switch. Wait 5 minutes. If its clear, go.
In CTC the rules for entering a siding are very simple. You obey the signals.
In CTC the rules for leaving a siding are simple. You obey the signals.
But that's not what you asked about.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
considering the rules described for entering a siding, I have a difficult time imagining a model railroad that truly implements a prototypical signaling system or an operating session that accurately follows a rule book.
i've seen Bruce Chubb's Signal series describing turnout locks and keys
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Actually the answer to the original question was pretty simple. They would flag.
When the train is about to arrive at the station they drop a flagman, the train pulls into the siding, while they secure the train the head flagman goes out ahead, they open the switch and wait 5 minutes, they run around the train, get back in the siding, call in the flags and they are done.
On some roads, they might leave the entering switch open to "hold" the signals.
Jeff, thanks for the explanation. it is much simpler than expected :-)
Reinhard
faraway I have read all the long thread but I do still not understand how a train gets out of a siding or double connected lead again. Let's assume only one direction with the ABS blocks 1 to 10. Four trains enter that string of blocks. Train A goes into a siding in block 8, realignes the switches and starts some switching. After some time is the switing done and train A wants toget back on the main. Train B is fast and has passed block 8 while train A did switching. Train C and D are slow and travel in block 4 and 6. Who knows train C is at block 6 and train A may throw the switch and reoccupy block 8? The train crew has no indication. The dispatcher has no "electric" information of the location of trains C and D. Will train A ask for permission, the dispatcher ask C and D via radio and grant or deny permission based on the verbal location report?
I have read all the long thread but I do still not understand how a train gets out of a siding or double connected lead again.
Let's assume only one direction with the ABS blocks 1 to 10. Four trains enter that string of blocks. Train A goes into a siding in block 8, realignes the switches and starts some switching. After some time is the switing done and train A wants toget back on the main.
Train B is fast and has passed block 8 while train A did switching. Train C and D are slow and travel in block 4 and 6.
Who knows train C is at block 6 and train A may throw the switch and reoccupy block 8? The train crew has no indication. The dispatcher has no "electric" information of the location of trains C and D.
Will train A ask for permission, the dispatcher ask C and D via radio and grant or deny permission based on the verbal location report?
Assuming single track ABS and the train in the siding has authority to proceed and any following trains aren't superior to this train. That is, there are no approaching trains that the train would have to meet, nor is there any following trains that train would have to allow to pass before entering the main track.
A crewmember goes to the main track switch and opens it. The crewmember stays at the switch and the train waits 5 minutes before leaving the siding and entering the main track. When the switch is opened, it shunts the block signal system, causing signals approaching the block that the switch is in from both directions to go red. The 5 minute wait is to allow any approaching train to reach their next block signal and observe that there is an obstruction ahead. Depending on where the approaching train is, their last signal may have been green, the next one red. If the approaching train is already beyond the last signal before the switch, the 5 minute wait allows the crewmember at the switch to see the approaching train and line the switch back for the main track.
There are conditions where the 5 minute wait isn't required. That's for another discussion. First, grasp the 5 minute wait before entereing tha main track. That's how they teach new-hires on the railroad I work for. You need to understand the basics before tackling the technicalities.
Jeff
gregci've read the Soloman books, but they are just about signals. The books on operations sound more interesting.
For the books on operations, it helps to have a rule book handy. They are all pretty dry. Josserand assumes the reader has a familiarity with the rules. They also tend to say what the rules mean, but not necessarily how to use them. The OpSig books and articles are the more along those lines, being intended for modelers. Stuff by Steve King is very good.
Also be prepared to find that there is a lot of model stuff that is not covered because the prototype didn't do that. For example, the dispatcher authorizing a runaround in ABS or dark TT&TO or signals set up to facilitate switching moves. Or even installing signals on a line that has only two stations.
gregc thanks for the book recommendation i've read the Soloman books, but they are just about signals. The books on operations sound more interesting.
thanks for the book recommendation
i've read the Soloman books, but they are just about signals. The books on operations sound more interesting.
Also for a very detailed explaination of model railroad signalling, Bruce Chubb did a 13? part article in RMC last year (or the year before). Its extensive in its discussion of signaling.
gregc thanks one aspect of the hobby is to better understand the how real railroads work. I know some modelers truly try to model real railroads in contrast to building a model railroad. as i add signals to my model railroad, they've made me wonder about how real railroads use them. In my case, i'd like the signals to be helpful as well. So as you've helped me understand, i realize what i'd like to do is not prototypical and I'm fine with that. what i'd like to do is make the signal indicate "stop" if the turnout is aligned to an occupied track at a siding (station/depot). This would be helpful to me when I operate my model RR. i appreciate all the explanations. I wouldn't be surprised if over time i see the weaknesses of what I've done and can better appreciate prototypical operation.
thanks
one aspect of the hobby is to better understand the how real railroads work. I know some modelers truly try to model real railroads in contrast to building a model railroad.
as i add signals to my model railroad, they've made me wonder about how real railroads use them. In my case, i'd like the signals to be helpful as well. So as you've helped me understand, i realize what i'd like to do is not prototypical and I'm fine with that.
what i'd like to do is make the signal indicate "stop" if the turnout is aligned to an occupied track at a siding (station/depot). This would be helpful to me when I operate my model RR.
i appreciate all the explanations. I wouldn't be surprised if over time i see the weaknesses of what I've done and can better appreciate prototypical operation.
Greg,
There is a lot of really good information that can be had from OPSIG (NMRA membership encouraged, but not required). They have a quarterly publication that can be had digitally.
Also you might wish to pick up one of Brian Solomon's Railroad Signaling books (I think he has written two now).
Another good reasource is 19 East Copy Three (from OPSIG, I dont know if they have any copies left edit: I just checked, they dont, but several online retailers have it). A review can be found here: http://www.opsig.org/doff/DOpages/19EastReview.pdf
19 East Copy Three explains TT & TO operation very well.
OPSIG also has a book called A Compendium of Model Railroad Operations.
Another good resource is Rights of Trains by Peter Josserand. This book contains the Standard Code of Operating Rules, Adopted March, 1949. It provides the stardard code, operating rules, block signal rules, interlocking rules, individual carrier changes to the rules, and a very useful question and answer section and much more. Its a little light on photographs (just has some figures).
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo that is the question, did the crew report the switch as lined to the main? If they did, it falls on them.
Crews are required to report that they have restored all main track switches to normal position by federal law, an emergency order was issued following a previous accident and it became a rule/law.
I have heard of several incidents where a train reported they restored the switches and had not. Lots of reasons, they thought another crew member did it, they intended to and got distracted, they thought they had, but hadn't.
BRAKIEToday there is no manned towers,no OSing GPS and computerized DS'ing is used. CSX closed F Tower at Fostoria five(?) years ago and those are hot diamonds and connectors. In dark territory the DS better know where his trains is.
I spent 2/3 of my railroad career in dispatch offices. The dispatcher doesn't need to know EXACTLY where the train is at all times. He needs to know where the train was authorized and that the train is in its authority. Even in CTC the train dispatcher doesn't know EXACTLY where the trains are, he just knows they are in a block which could be miles long. He doesn't need to know it the train 1000 feet west of mp 201 or 2000 ft west of mp 201.
The person that needs to know EXACTLY where the train is is the engineer (and conductor).
Dispatch offices do NOT use GPS to dispatch trains. Primarily because not all trains are equipped with transponding GPS locators, and the GPS signals are not shared real time between railroads. A UP engine on the NS doesn't share its GPS info with the NS and an NS engine on the UP doesn't share its info with the NS. They are working on that, but it wasn't in place a couple years ago. In some cases the GPS only reports at intervals, like every 15 minutes, which is not good enough for dispatching. Plus the commercial GPS is only good to plus or minus 15-20 ft. Since tracks can be on 13 ft centers, commercial GPS isn't accurate enough to tell which track a train is on, that is kinda important for dispatching. Dispatch systems do NOT use GPS for dispatching. PTC uses GPS to locate trains on the railroad, but that is a different thing. That is the engine locating itself on the railroad, it is one way communication, the same as your auto GPS telling you where your car is on the road. For that measure, plus or minus 15-20 ft is good enough.
BRAKIE dehusman In the TT&TO days, the operators would give the dispatcher an "OS" to report the locations of the trains so the dispatcher would know where they were. Without the OS the dispatcher doesn't know where the trains are. On the PRR trains was indeed OS because there was tons of manned towers that was the last glory days of railroading.. Today there is no manned towers,no OSing GPS and computerized DS'ing is used. CSX closed F Tower at Fostoria five(?) years ago and those are hot diamonds and connectors. In dark territory the DS better know where his trains is. If that NS lawsuit against that crew stands its a new world of railroad accountability for the rank and file. Railroads are wanting one man crews and toying with the idea of crewless trains in the future..
dehusman In the TT&TO days, the operators would give the dispatcher an "OS" to report the locations of the trains so the dispatcher would know where they were. Without the OS the dispatcher doesn't know where the trains are.
On the PRR trains was indeed OS because there was tons of manned towers that was the last glory days of railroading..
Today there is no manned towers,no OSing GPS and computerized DS'ing is used. CSX closed F Tower at Fostoria five(?) years ago and those are hot diamonds and connectors.
In dark territory the DS better know where his trains is.
If that NS lawsuit against that crew stands its a new world of railroad accountability for the rank and file.
Railroads are wanting one man crews and toying with the idea of crewless trains in the future..
Accountablity? The signals were dark. Somebody left the switch set to the siding, and somebody told the AMTRAK train to proceed.
So somebody lied, or somebody made the mistake of a lifetime.
But if the dispatcher was told the main was clear, and the signals were dark, the crew is responsible, seems pretty clear to me.
In this age of cell phones and radios, with the signals down, one person not there can only act on the information he is provided.
So that is the question, did the crew report the switch as lined to the main? If they did, it falls on them.
Had the signals not been dark, the dispatcher and the AMTRAK crew would have known the switch was not lined to the main, no matter what the crew said. No crash............
Sheldon
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEHere's why I didn't fully buy into the DS not knowing where his trains was..
I'm surprised that you weren't familiar with the what an "OS" was.
The dispatcher doesn't know where the trains are outside of CTC territory in any era. In the TT&TO days, the operators would give the dispatcher an "OS" to report the locations of the trains so the dispatcher would know where they were. Without the OS the dispatcher doesn't know where the trains are.
cx500For dark territory the DS now usually has a screen showing over what sections of his territory there are active train and track occupancy authorities, to ensure no laps are issued. It may in some ways resemble a screen in CTC, but it has no ability to track the actual movement of a train. That must be done verbally over the radio, and the screen updated manually by the DS.
cx500,Thanks! That makes perfect sense. The DS would need to answer questions if things went South in a hurry..
Here's why I didn't fully buy into the DS not knowing where his trains was..
In case you haven't heard NS is suing the crew that had that wreck in Kentucky.
Accountability has taken the next step.
BRAKIE cx500 What Dave said is correct. Indeed there are no operators, so the dispatcher must rely on the radio to talk to the crew when he needs to know where they are. The computer shows only what section of track the train's operating authority owns but that can easily be 40 miles or more. I often hear a train being asked for a track release so the dispatcher can give the track behind it to another train or MofW. Then why not annull that DS job since he is not under control of his section of track? Surely that man is there for a reason beside drinking coffee..
cx500 What Dave said is correct. Indeed there are no operators, so the dispatcher must rely on the radio to talk to the crew when he needs to know where they are. The computer shows only what section of track the train's operating authority owns but that can easily be 40 miles or more. I often hear a train being asked for a track release so the dispatcher can give the track behind it to another train or MofW.
Then why not annull that DS job since he is not under control of his section of track? Surely that man is there for a reason beside drinking coffee..
The DS is very definitely in control of his section of track, and often very busy.
That first train could not use it until the DS gave him authorization to occupy it. How much track will depend on how busy the line is, since the DS will be giving other trains and track forces authorities elsewhere on the subdivision. Unlike using signals in CTC, the authority is given verbally over the radio and until it is repeated back (correctly) by the train cannot be confirmed. That is a somewhat time consuming process. So the "block" of track for which the train is authorized will be as long as possible, much the same as a DS in CTC may clear the signals through a series of control locations long before the train needs the last one. In CTC once the train has passed a control location the DS can then line it for some other movement. (The lights on his board or screen indicate when the train is occupying a control point, and its approximate location (within a few miles) between them.) In dark territory he must confirm with the train that it has passed the location he wants to use to authorize another movement.
For dark territory the DS now usually has a screen showing over what sections of his territory there are active train and track occupancy authorities, to ensure no laps are issued. It may in some ways resemble a screen in CTC, but it has no ability to track the actual movement of a train. That must be done verbally over the radio, and the screen updated manually by the DS.
I thought I'd mention the MSS signal system, here.
It does a very credible job of ABS signaling. It also picks up track switches thrown against a train. It also will do route-indicating, so I guess it's also sort of a simple-minded CTC system.
Last time I was running trains at a set-up using MSS, I started out running my train by looking down the track to visually check switch alignment and occupancy. After awhile, I noticed that I had drifted into using the signal indications. SO cool!
MSS doesn't use a computer, just simple wiring logic. It works with pretty complicated trackage (wyes and return loops). I have not seen it set up for a continuous "toy train" loop, though.
There was a pretty beginner-friendly introduction in one of the train mags, but I can't find it right now. Here's a less beginner-friendly version:
http://modularsignalsystem.info/index.html
The system was developed for Free-mo, but can easily by transferred over to a single layout. While it is extremely useful to understand how the system works, when you need to troubleshoot; it can, in fact, be built pretty much "mechanically", as in "put this thing here"--"wire this tab over to that tab".
Ed
cx500What Dave said is correct. Indeed there are no operators, so the dispatcher must rely on the radio to talk to the crew when he needs to know where they are. The computer shows only what section of track the train's operating authority owns but that can easily be 40 miles or more. I often hear a train being asked for a track release so the dispatcher can give the track behind it to another train or MofW.
dehusman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Systems that give reasonable prototype appearance and function, but take into account the compressed nature of even the largest layouts. And that's basically what I suggest to people, just make an approximation that shows what information you want it to show and keep it simple, don't worry about prototype signal placement, etc. What most people what are occupancy or switch position indicators. If that's what you want do that. Recognize it won't be prototypical in many cases and accept that. I suggest to people modeling TWC or DTC to "pretend" they have ABS. What ABS does in prevent trains from running into each other and in most cases model railroad operators can see to the next station so the chances of running into something on a model railroad are slim. However in the operating rules, ABS gives you a lot more options with regard to bunching up trains that comes in real handy on a space compressed model railroad.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Systems that give reasonable prototype appearance and function, but take into account the compressed nature of even the largest layouts.
And that's basically what I suggest to people, just make an approximation that shows what information you want it to show and keep it simple, don't worry about prototype signal placement, etc. What most people what are occupancy or switch position indicators. If that's what you want do that. Recognize it won't be prototypical in many cases and accept that.
I suggest to people modeling TWC or DTC to "pretend" they have ABS. What ABS does in prevent trains from running into each other and in most cases model railroad operators can see to the next station so the chances of running into something on a model railroad are slim. However in the operating rules, ABS gives you a lot more options with regard to bunching up trains that comes in real handy on a space compressed model railroad.
Agreed.
As an Advanced Cab Control DC operator, simulating CTC in the early 50's, my needs are ratger different from those modeling more recent systems.
By eliminating all intermediate signals and approach aspects trains can be bunched up in every block when necessary.
With a dispatcher on duty, his job assigns route, track power and clears signals all with the push of just a few buttons.
Interlockings are protected like the prototype, the route must be clear, and detection prevents turnouts from being thrown under the train.
If an engineer runs a red signal, ATC kicks in, and his train just goes into emergency stop.
gregc what i'd like to do is make the signal indicate "stop" if the turnout is aligned to an occupied track at a siding (station/depot). This would be helpful to me when I operate my model RR.
You don't mention, here, which direction you're going. I'm going to assume the approaching train is coming towards the points-end of the track switch. Anyway, yes, it can be done.
The biggy is the detection system. You've got to detect the train (if it's there) in the siding. The simplest would be to use one or more optical detectors. Set them up so that the light beam(s) cover enough trackage to pick up the train. You take that information through contacts on the switch machine to pick up the switch position. And then over to the "relay" for the color indication for the signal. It's all pretty stand-alone, then, and you don't have to think about a whole signal system.
You COULD make it a bit simpler by having the signal go from green (for the main) over to yellow (for the siding). Then you could just run the signal wires through the switch machine contacts. THEN you put in a little dwarf signal (maybe lunar white) that ONLY indicates the track occupancy. Wiring that should be super easy, just based on directions that come with the optical detector stuff you buy.
Yup. That's what happened to me. At first, I just wanted signals with their pretty lights. Well, they look pretty stupid if they never change color. And it just kept going......
As you can tell, I'm only part ways along, and still have much to learn. Which is fun. To me. If I every get to it, I have plans to build an arduino-based fully signaled interlocking. Wish me luck.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSystems that give reasonable prototype appearance and function, but take into account the compressed nature of even the largest layouts.
The very first words of the very first installment of the Star Wars saga was a simple, straightforward declaration of fact: "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away . . ." And thus, the reality of the fiction was established.
The signals on my layout are based, more or less, on the Kansas City Southern system. I looked at others, but the KCS system was the easiest to understand and seemed to fit my purpose. Even so, I modified it slightly. My system is clear (at least to me) and consistent: when the signal shows green over red, it indicates that the next two blocks of the mainline are clear and that both switches ahead are closed (i.e., aligned to the main); it indicates that the next signal encountered might be yellow, but the next signal encountered won't be red. Other aspects would indicate other conditions, and other conditions would show other aspects. Simple. Blasphemous to some maybe, but simple.
Your railroad, your rules.
Good luck.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
One more thought, much of the prototype info offered as been about more current/modern practice.
The OP did not indicate what era he models, it may well be before radios...........and before current standardized signal practice.
BRAKIE dehusman Dispatchers do not know where trains are in dark or ABS territory unless the train crew or an operator tells him. There is no operators today as you know..The DS and his computer knows all even in dark territories. CR issued track permits for the local that operated between Crestline and Lima.
dehusman Dispatchers do not know where trains are in dark or ABS territory unless the train crew or an operator tells him.
There is no operators today as you know..The DS and his computer knows all even in dark territories. CR issued track permits for the local that operated between Crestline and Lima.
What Dave said is correct. Indeed there are no operators, so the dispatcher must rely on the radio to talk to the crew when he needs to know where they are. The computer shows only what section of track the train's operating authority owns but that can easily be 40 miles or more. I often hear a train being asked for a track release so the dispatcher can give the track behind it to another train or MofW.
An experienced dispatcher will have a good mental image of where the trains most likely are but he won't know for certain unless the train crew explicitly tells him. If the DS has the right radio tower keyed in, by chance, he might hear the train calling a station name. He can use that only to update his mental image, not authorities.
Greg, I stayed out of this conversation because you already had plenty of good info.
But reading your last post, I will say this. Back in the the 50's, 60's and 70's many of the greats in this hobby installed on their layouts, and strongly advocated for, simplified signal systems.
Systems that give reasonable prototype appearance and function, but take into account the compressed nature of even the largest layouts.
Simple rules.
ABS, automatic block signals, simply indicate occupancy and safe routes thru turnouts.
CTC, centralized traffic control, dispatcher sets routes/turnouts, and clears trains to proceed by clearing signals, occupancy repots to dispatcher and limits clear signals.
In the first 2/3rds of the 20th century, every railroad had different signals/rules. Sure, many were similar, some not.
So making up your own simple version is just fine.
My layout uses simplified CTC, similar to Bruce Cubb's or Ed Ravenscroft's early systems.
It ignores intermediate block signals in favor of only using interlocking or "home" signals. It uses approach signals to "fake" some intermediate signals. It ignores many "yellow" indications, only showing them on restricting speed routes or mirroring a red on an approach signal.
These signals tell the mainline engineer exactly what to do. Just like real life, the dispatcher is in charge, the engineer just runs the loco.
dehusmanDispatchers do not know where trains are in dark or ABS territory unless the train crew or an operator tells him.
jeffhergertIn ABS single track territory, a green signal doesn't necessarily mean you can go. A red signal doesn't necessarily mean you have to stay.
Exactly. I remember riding CPR's The Canadian back in the mid 1970s pulling up to a stop at a green signal. The fireman or trainman got out and reversed the switch so we could clear into the siding. Unfortunately I can't remember what the signal aspect was, or even if it had one or two heads. In those days we didn't have to wait long before the opposing train appeared.