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Diesel Fueling

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  • Member since
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Diesel Fueling
Posted by Attuvian on Friday, October 27, 2017 12:34 PM

It seems that virtually all diesels have fuel tanks on both sides.  Whether these are separate or are tanks that span the width of the undercarraige (or are joined by piping) is probably secondary to my initial questions.

I would imagine that at large facilities there might be fueling stands on both sides of a particular service track.  Alternately, and more probable at smaller facilities, there might be a single stand (or row of them) with tracks on both sides.  In those cases an engine would have to change tracks for a full top-off.  The latter would seem to be a bit inefficient, however.  Or whatever.

I am planning an enroute service area for an SP main line in south central Oregon in the early 50's.  As a small facility, how should I design the placement of two or three fueling stands?  And what types and sizes of storage tanks are appropriate? It will comprend needs not only for single units but multiples as well.  And, at the closing years of the Transition Era, shall I suppose that the same stands would be used for both diesels and late steam?

(I'll grant that this could be posed as easily under the Layouts or Prototype forums but Genral Discussion got the nod.  Our Moderator may shift it as appropriate.)

Much obliged, friends.

John

[John - Although a "semi-specific" prototype query, general questions about terminal/servicing tracks are still best posted and answered in the Prototype forum; hence why it has been moved. ~Tom, MR user-moderator]

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Posted by jrbernier on Friday, October 27, 2017 12:42 PM

  All modern engines have a single(approximately 5,000 gallon) fuel tank with fuel fillers on both sides.  Some older engines(GP7/9 passenger) had split tanks with a central fuel tank and side saddle water tanks.

  Not sure if they do refueling from both sides at the same time...

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by joe323 on Friday, October 27, 2017 1:28 PM

I don’t know about the 50s but arent most modern diesels filled by tanker trucks on the fly rather thsn a dedicated facility which would involve a lot of more investment on the railroads part?

Joe Staten Island West 

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, October 27, 2017 2:08 PM

Attuvian

 

I am planning an enroute service area for an SP main line in south central Oregon in the early 50's.  As a small facility, how should I design the placement of two or three fueling stands?  And what types and sizes of storage tanks are appropriate? It will comprend needs not only for single units but multiples as well.  And, at the closing years of the Transition Era, shall I suppose that the same stands would be used for both diesels and late steam?

 

 

This being an enroute fueling station, you can put it beside the main IF you don't mind blocking the main during fueling.  You can set up a siding next to the main, otherwise.

For through freights, SP in the fifties would have (mostly) been running ABBA sets of F's for freight.  I expect you should space four stands out at that spacing.  If passenger units came through, the hoses would have to be long enough to reach them, too.  One side of the track, only.  

The same stands would not be used for steam.  First, they didn't use diesel fuel.  Second, they loaded through the top of the fuel bunker on the tender.  You can see pictures that illustrate this.

The storage tank for diesel can be quite aways away.  It's piped underground.  Usually.  Same for steam.  Depending on how many locomotives are fueled during a day, you MIGHT be able to park some tank cars nearby, and use them for storage.

 

Ed

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Posted by Attuvian on Friday, October 27, 2017 2:41 PM

Thanks, Ed.   I likely will be using a siding.  Diesels in use will be three Fs (an A and two Bs), three GP9s and a couple of SD9s.  Steam is a final days MT-4 and a Prairie with a small oil Vandy tender from an invented Short Line that joins the SP at this point.

Would the fuel for the steamers been some sort of bunker oil - perhaps not that different from what was used for ships?

John

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, October 27, 2017 4:25 PM

Attuvian

 

Would the fuel for the steamers been some sort of bunker oil - perhaps not that different from what was used for ships?

 

Same thing, I think.  I believe that's where it got its name.

I expect it would occasionally need to be heated to flow properly.  Using steam.  Hence a steam generator somewhere.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by Attuvian on Friday, October 27, 2017 4:34 PM

7j43k
Same thing, I think.  I believe that's where it got its name.

I expect it would occasionally need to be heated to flow properly.  Using steam.  Hence a steam generator somewhere.

 

Ed

 

That may well explain something.  IIRC, I've seen rather large, jacketed hosing between a few engines and tenders that are on display in this area.  Definitely not what I'd expect for air.  But I'd never thought before of the fuel bins on tenders being piped for steam heat.

John

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Posted by 1019x on Friday, October 27, 2017 5:02 PM

John,

You are correct, oil burning steam locomotives used a heavy oil similar to what oil fired ships used. Diesel locomotive fuel tanks have a filler connection on each side so they can be fueled from either side. You only fuel from one side. The small terminal I worked had two fuel tracks with a set of fuel hoses down the center.

The size of storage tank that is needed would depend on the number of locomotive fueled in a day and how easy is it to resupply the storage tank. Some railroads bought their fuel from specific suppliers and moved it in company service tank cars. The locations that I worked at were close to fuel pipeline distributing centers and the fuel was trucked in from the the distributing centers several times a week. To figure daily fuel use, the F units had 1200 gallon tanks and the GP9s' tanks would vary from 800 to 1200 gallons depending on if they also had a water tank for a steam heat generator in passenger service. The SD9s usually had 2400 gallon tanks. As  someone else has mentioned the storage tank doesn't have to be right next to the fuel track. At one of my locations the storage tank was about a 1/4 mile from the service track and was connected to the service track by an underground pipeline.

In regards to yard tracks or main line refueling, some locations had both with a locomotive service facility in the main freight yard and often fueling facilities at the passenger station primarly to fuel passenger locomotives but they often would be used to fuel through freight trains as well. Some roads now have mainline fueling stations specifically for freight trains. BNSF at Belen NM is one that comes to mind.

Charlie 

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, October 27, 2017 6:47 PM

Attuvian

 

That may well explain something.  IIRC, I've seen rather large, jacketed hosing between a few engines and tenders that are on display in this area.  Definitely not what I'd expect for air.  But I'd never thought before of the fuel bins on tenders being piped for steam heat.

John

 

 

Don't confuse the water supply hoses on a locomotive with steam lines.  The water supply hoses are the "most outside" connections between engine and tender.  They are very obvious. There is always a steam connection between engine and tender for passenger locomotives, since that's how the steam got back to the train to heat it.  They could have also used it for oil bunker heat.  If a loco didn't supply steam for the train, it MIGHT still have a steam line for the bunker.

It IS my impression that there was steam heat for the oil bunker in a tender.  At least up north.  My "impression" doesn't make it true.

I was, however, not referring to steam heat for the tender.  I was referring to steam heat for the delivery system.  Again, I have the strong "impression" that steam was necessary up north to get the fuel thin enough to flow.

If you want to pursue this in model form, you'll need a steam supply on the ground somewhere.  On your layout, it might be "out of sight".  Or there might be a boiler somewhere that can supply it.  You COULD build a little boiler house for the steam generator.

Best thing is to research locations along the right of way of interest.  Or nearby.

 

Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, October 28, 2017 5:26 PM
Gidday John, not sure if you’re a Model Railroader subscriber but there is an article in the October 1957 issue which shows the SP facility for oil burning steam locomotives at New Iberia, La. It has a very small footprint as the tank car body used for storage of the Bunker C was mounted vertically.

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by Attuvian on Saturday, October 28, 2017 9:48 PM

Gidday John, not sure if you’re a Model Railroader subscriber but there is an article in the October 1957 issue which shows the SP facility for oil burning steam locomotives at New Iberia, La. It has a very small footprint as the tank car body used for storage of the Bunker C was mounted vertically.

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

 

Good on ya, Bear.  Good to hear from you.  I am an MR subscriber.  Let me see if I can access the article and photos.  I do happen to have an old Athearn BB Espee Diesel Service tanker stored away that I could employ in a pinch, though the volume of a single might be a bit lacking based on the need.  But rust it up, create a ground mounting and add two or three more beside it and I might be cooking.

Enjoy your Spring, mate, and don't get tooted for collapsing any scrums.

John

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:44 PM

If you have the "digital archives", it is a great article.  It also talks about the "bunker C" oil that is used.

I have a good friend that used to work on Great Lakes freighters, and they also burned the same fuel.  It had to be heated, or it was like jelly.

Mike

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:48 PM

A big steamer would take about 6000 gallons of fuel.  A tank car would hold about 10,000 gallons.  So if you use the facility once, you have to start thinking about filling up the former tank car.

For "an enroute service area for an SP main line", I think you'll need a larger storage tank.

 

Ed

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Posted by Attuvian on Sunday, October 29, 2017 7:48 AM

Alright, based on responses here, a plan is developing that will include representations of tanks for both kinds of fuels: a larger circular tank for the diesel and three converted and ganged tank car bodies for the steamers' bunker oil.  Those to be on a base with a small adjacent diesel powered steam generator and appropriate plumbing.  Separate fueling stands would be of fitting design for side tank fueling of the diesels and top filling for the steamer tenders.

I'll have to reasearch the various styles of ready-made stands that are out there.  Got enough on my plate already and don't want to have to built them from scratch.  Zookies, gonna have to live at least until a hundred for enough retirement time to do all the stuff I'm coming up with.  And then another 20 years for the stuff my sweetie is dreaming up!  Don't tell her: she'll want to swap her 20 for my 26 . . . Hmm

Thanks, all, for the help.

John

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, October 29, 2017 4:23 PM

Attuvian
I'll have to reasearch the various styles of ready-made stands that are out there.

If you don't mind cleaning up some alloy castings, the W/S kit has some nice pieces:

https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/D232/page/1

I bought one of the Walthers kits, too but the main feature is the modern "dike"  for both the track-pan and storage tank that I really didn't have much use for:

https://www.walthers.com/diesel-fueling-facility-kit

American Limited has a Snyder fuel crane that might be useful (modern, but not too modern)

http://www.americanlimitedmodels.com/ho-snyder-fuel-crane-2/

The Walthers Industrial tanks make handy, smaller tanks for use around the layout:

https://www.walthers.com/industrial-tanks-detail-set-cornerstone-kit

 

Good Luck, Ed

 

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Posted by Attuvian on Sunday, October 29, 2017 8:53 PM

Well, here's an item in OO scale that is what I kind of like for the diesel. Relative size would probably be OK but I suspect that the 1:76 scale stairs (and, by extension, the walkways) might not pass the eye test. Then there's finding one on this side of the water.

https:www.//picclick.co.uk/Fuel-Oil-Depot-Kit-Knight-Wing-282324443419.html

John

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Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, October 29, 2017 9:01 PM

Link is no good

 

Henry

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By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by Attuvian on Sunday, October 29, 2017 9:13 PM

BigDaddy

Link is no good

 
 

Arrghh!  Can't make it work.  Google on Knight Wing PM116.

John

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Posted by DSchmitt on Sunday, October 29, 2017 10:11 PM

picclick.co.uk appears to be is a search engine for Ebay in the UK.

This is the kit refered to

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knightwing-PM116-Diesel-Fuel-Oil-Depot-Kit-00/401313840649?hash=item5d702b3e09:g:EO4AAMXQPatTIv8z

 

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by ATSFGuy on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 7:45 PM

Let's say an MKT F3 A-B-A set of Red/Silver Diesels are sitting near the refulling track, how would each unit get fueled up with oil so it can power a transition era freight train?

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 7:55 PM

ATSFGuy
how would each unit get fueled up with oil so it can power a transition era freight train?

Perhaps like this?

http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption

Only not MKT and not freight...

Cheers! Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 03, 2017 2:13 PM

Just for the record, Knightwing PM118 is the distribution platform with hoses.

There have been some exhaustive discussions of what is in a couple of the hoses in the Shorpy picture — the smaller ones may be water and not lube as ATSF made heavy use of steam-ejector AC.  Note that this train had only 5 minutes dwell at some of these stops, which may explain pressurized tank cars as the source for the fuel...

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